Meat Puppets S/D, C or D

Like Miss Piggy would have to be made of baloney, obviously. And Kermit wouldn't be meat at all, but rather those "sandwich stacker" pickles which are already sliced, neatly arranged and knitting-needled together into a more-or-less froggic shape.

So "Plateau" and "Lake of Fire," then.

'Up On The Sun' is nearly as good. I like everything else by 'em I've heard, but nothing else competes with those two records. Classic, classic, and thrice classic.

Why does it always have to be Classic or Dud? Something in the middle there? With the Meat Puppets, aside from II, I'd really want to deem them Awright.

Because ILM is jockist.

The dusty archives of alt.music.alternative will tell you too much about a lot of us.

Is II a lot better?

In defense of their self titled album, I think it is a wonderful artifact for numerous reasons. It has that specific thin and dirty Spot-produced early SST sound which I find nostalgic. To my knowledge, it is one of the first and best infusions of psychedelia with American hardcore/punk. The singing is primitive yet pure, and the intuitive playing which holds the songs together is inspired. The changes in dynamics, texture, time, and color are often subtle yet always instantaneous and lend the songs a surprising cohesion despite their loose 'improvised' structures. The affect is simultaneously drug-addled and innocent. It is difficult not to anthropomorphize the record itself which seems so weirdly full of joy, fear, and humor.

Most people I know dismiss their 7" and first album as demented experimentation, but there is a resonance to these records should you choose to explore them a little deeper.

II is my favorite partly because of the songwriting, and more so because of the performances which create a lot of ambient space without adding a superfluous tone or note.

Live in Montana is amusing, but I also find it longwinded and at times, incredibly annoying. Whenever they cop the Grateful Dead or "get funky," I'm not sure how to react.

I wz listening to 'up on the sun' late last night and several things struck me - how there aren't any riffs, its composed of all these guitar runs, all continuous and sunny (if minor chords are sad ones then are these major chords? I don't know...). The singing is very different to that on 'II', he sounds more drunk instead of nervous. I think there are also some treated guitar effects that appear, albeit briefly, on some of the tracks and the lyrics are pretty great too...can't remember the words jumping out of the CD booklet since 'trout mask replica', all those years ago.

This is a Rolling Stones cover. I'm not sure if you meant that the song predated the 90s slacker or the 70s slacker.

II is a classic album. It is awesome and captures something that for me, is beyond words. It has a beauty that few albums have. Up On the Sun, on the other hand-- well, I just don't get that record. I know everyone raves about it, but I don't think it's near as good as II. It seems a lot more of a conscious effort or something... still decent, but I wouldn't recommend it as a first MP purchase.

UP ON THE SUN = SERIOUSLY ONE OF THE BEST ALBUMS EVER

The best songs on II are the instrumentals, anyway!

classic, by the way.

CLASIC CLASSIC ! !

They were infamous for starting a set with the overture to South pacific to a hardcore audience when they supported one of the bigger bands, was it Dead Kennedys? Always seemed to be a maverick streak that I quite enjoyed but it could go too far into cheesiness in places.
Just seems like they were playing Sloop John B every night when they could have played something less cheesy.

Damn that first record is really something totally unlike anything else, I listened this morning for the first time in forever and had my gourd blown all over again. "II" is unimpeachable, after that my interest...err...ebbs & flows.

W/r/t to the cheesy opening song, even as late as sometime in the 00s when I last saw them, the crowd was pretty much just backward white baseball cap wearing jocks. I don't remember what exactly they started with (UMS might recall) but what it was it was really weird and wrong-footed the whole room in a good way, it ended up being a really great gig.

yah first record is incredible just wow

First e.p. is quite incredible for a different direction. even more bluegrass based hardcore.
But my introduction was the vinyl version of that first lp and it is still something I would love to hear a lot more of.
NOt sure if anybody did take that as a starting point and get even more into getting stuck in the mud and actually stretching things out like not just for a couple of minutes. I did hear that it has been cited as a major influence on grunge. I remember the NME review comparing it to the ballroom sound of SF . Also sounds like pretty advanced playing heavily disguised as extremely amateur.
Well glad i got the Rykodisc version which expands it out to twice or 3 times the length.

Now I need to get the rest of the Monitor lp.

Oral history book was really interesting, not sure if you can still get that.

that ryko disc first album with all the bonus tracks is essential. i tried to listen to too high to die last week and its wack. oh damn i posted on this thread 16 years ago and just found myself agreeing with myself before i knew it was me lol.

Interesting that the later SST records, esp "Mirage" even though the music & playing is definitely more mersh, the vocals are...worse? Kudos for that at least.

threeway tie for last and p much everything recorded around then sounds weird and has a weird sheen to it

Yeah, all that 85-87 SST stuff sounds weird, often it feels like they are reaching for something that is just beyond their grasp (technically/finacially) and at the time (or more like 1991-92 when I first heard most of it) I thought it sounded abhorrent, though now I find some of it oddly charming, probably becuz it is so obviously of a very specific era

the most 1987 sst sounding album (or probably ragin full on) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gm9U4EBWUsQ

lots of amazing SST records released during that time too of course, it's insane the number of records they were pumping out: 1985 - 24, 1986 - 32, 1987 - 64(!!!)

admittedly half of 1987s output was zoogz rift back-catalogue

I know there's a bit of retrospective kindness for Spot's engineering, but he's a blight to a lot of those records.

A vast back catalogue funded by non-payment of royalties to the handful of bands on the label that sold anything!

I heard the Rykodisc remasters had to be mastered from SST's own CD's because the master tapes were (and still) MIA - is that true?

Anyway, the kindest and more hilarious spin I've seen on SST's practices is that it's kind of like a Bailey Saving & Loan. You know, from It's a Wonderful Life: "Your money's not here Bob. It's in the Meat Puppets new album and Black Flag's next album..."

Or rather Bailey Building and Loan...been too long since I've seen the movie.

Now I need to get the rest of the Monitor lp.

Monitor lp is excellent west coast art damage

Agree that mirage, 3 way tie, flip your wig, loose nut all have an unfortunate neither fish nor fowl sound to them

Up on the sun sounds perfect though in its kinda slickness

I heard the Rykodisc remasters had to be mastered from SST’s own CD’s because the master tapes were (and still) MIA - is that true?

I don’t know about those, but that has been the case for others: The Dicks’ Kill From the Heart reissue on Alternative Tentacles was mastered from the (deleted) vinyl.

are there any bands that cite Up On The Sun as a major influence. JUst wondering what is in the same ballpark that might have grown out of it. May have some influence from 74ish Grateful Dead I know they have mentioned that band among their own influences. But something about the bubbling bounciness in the sound from that year I'm being reminded of by listening to Up On The Sun.

I can only name precedents (first two talking heads records, some bits of murmur) but no real inheritors. Would love to hear about any as my love for this album is boundless

maybe fIREHOSE?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygiVIEzejVQ

maybe these guys? sort of like mid-period meat puppets transplanted to the grey fog of the pacific NW

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1d3yZOYYwo

june tour dates canceled :(

https://www.themeatpuppets.net/news

I’ve been trying to figure out if maybe it’s not worth the gas to drive across the country to play six small shows because they’ve been playing other shows lately and it’s not like Covid is getting more serious really

That may be what Dr. Fauci thought. Def what some people I know thought 'til recently.

(Fauci tested pos recently.)

Their gig in my town was not even on my radar. And now it’s cancelled.

so bummed, but then again i got covid a couple weeks ago, so i get it

I'd like to see them now, especially in a good club, if nothing else comparison. They are a band I saw a couple times as a kid, it would just be cool to see them now. It never lined up, but I would have loved to see some of the Jesus Lizard shows for that reason. I saw them twice once right after I turned 21 in Bloomington in '91 and a second time a few years later as the opening act for Primus at this cow barn at the Indiana State Fair. Horrible sound and the Puppets did not go over well. The first show was at a good club and they were so tight a band. You can tell the Meat Puppets had played together for a LONG time, just tight.

Minutemen/fIREHOSE was on a similar type of funk groove at points. Ed's tunes have a folky bounce, which is something the Meat Puppets do a lot.

been reading the SST "Corporate Rock Sucks" history and while i've never heard it, the passage about Monsters made it an immediate must hear:

The Meat Puppets also wanted out. After the release of Huevos and Mirage in 1987, the band was worn down from so many years on the road and more than a little discouraged to see bands like Soundgarden blowing up on MTV. The Meat Puppets recorded its next record, Monsters (SST 253), with the intention of getting off of SST and onto a major label. "So we went with the big, ugly-sounding reverb and electronic drums, and the big anthemic chorus crap," Bostrom said. Monsters is a Frankenstein-esque fusion of over-the-top riffs, tinny drums, and prog-country crooning- like ZZ Topp on acid.

“ZZ Topp”(?)

collect your prize for catching a typo in the book!

Haven't listened to it since it came out but Attacked By Monsters and Touchdown King were my favourite things on it

So does London count as a major label (i.e. did it work)?

Monsters was my first Pups record and it's not as terrible as people might think, it has these two lovely tracks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rI-zD4Z5ZWk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYILrial4lQ

I just listened to Monsters the day before yesterday by coincidence. I recalled “TD King” and “Light” being the only highlights but there’s actually a bunch of good shit on there and the drums are nbd

xp "This video is not available"

can you name what the tracks are please?

'Light' and 'Like Being Alive'

for a yank curt plays the smoothest frippertronic licks this side of adrian belew

I’m waiting on the post to bring me ’90s SST pressings of Monsters and Mirage in the next few days. I like Monsters more than Forbidden Places tbh; it doesn’t sound as good but the songs are great and it feels leaner in a good way.

xps thanks!

I think I agree with you now xp re monsters v forbidden places. I certainly would not have a year ago.

I don’t blame them, I mean you’re on a major (kind of) so go big or go home, right? But it feels longer, even though it’s actually a few minutes shorter.

And “this day”, “whirlpool” and “open wide” do rule

I love "Whirlpool" so much. Kinda feels like it's a few floors higher on the "Creator" elevator, now running for free.

Agreed on “Whirlpool”, it’s like the essence of the band’s whimsical, mystical sides.

By the way, Pitchfork covered Meat Puppets II for their Sunday Review: https://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/meat-puppets-meat-puppets-ii/

(I did not know that story about Curt and the plane crash, or maybe I did and forgot it.)

Was listening again to their absolutely frazzled appearance on SNAP in the late 80s, poor Deirdre, trying to get any kind of interview out of them, but I feel that the version of the Peggy Lee tune Pass Me By might be the apex of their screwball cover songs tradition.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUgqoEDZrco

Thanks for that II piece, I never would have noticed that. I didn’t know that plane crash story either. I think bostrom is a little too hard on the post-UotS albums. No, they aren’t on that level* but they’re way too joyful to be thought of as slogging

*well, about half of out my way IS on that level

Been revisiting Up on the Sun lately and its been lovely. Feels like a pretty big shift from II but it works so well. The guitar playing is out of this world. I thought they were for sure a 4 piece until I saw a public access youtube video of them playing "Swimming Ground"