― Will McKenzie, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― katie, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Madchen, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Samantha, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― julia, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Kodanshi, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― your null fame, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― james, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Mike Hanle y, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― jamesmichaelward, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
I hear Buffy is about to bite the big one. This would suck as I've based a whole halloween display around her and her vampire-slaying exploits. It's either that or Randall and Hopkirk, and to be honest, there are more books featuring Buffy.
Is she going to DIE DIE DIE? The Buffy fans say WHY WHY WHY. But she will DIE DIE DIE. And Spike will CRY CRY CRY. Xander will LIE LIE LIE when he says he still has a career. Meanwhile David Boreoanatz will SIGH SIGH SIGH as he knows deep in his heart that his spin-off series won't last the year. AI-YI-YI-YI! Screams Alison Hannigan as she realises that her only source of income now is the American Pie franchise. BYE BYE BYE says Sarah Michelle Gellar, after she never gets another part again due to typecasting.
― Al, Friday, 12 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
surely i misheard?
― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 23 January 2003 23:25 (twenty-one years ago) link
I had the same reaction to hearing the "real" ILM's name spoken aloud!
― nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 23 January 2003 23:39 (twenty-one years ago) link
― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 23 January 2003 23:42 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Thursday, 23 January 2003 23:44 (twenty-one years ago) link
― zebedee, Friday, 24 January 2003 14:11 (twenty-one years ago) link
― alex in montreal, Friday, 24 January 2003 20:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Cozen (Cozen), Friday, 24 January 2003 20:04 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Sarah McLusky (coco), Friday, 24 January 2003 20:06 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Cozen (Cozen), Friday, 24 January 2003 20:12 (twenty-one years ago) link
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002UUO86/ref=amb_asin-coop-1_138961/026-0364612-2999634
box set of ALL 7 Buffy series (roughly 170 episodes?), 39 disks, 140 quid
― koogs (koogs), Friday, 5 November 2004 16:31 (nineteen years ago) link
― Melissa W (Melissa W), Friday, 5 November 2004 16:33 (nineteen years ago) link
― Emilymv (Emilymv), Friday, 5 November 2004 17:02 (nineteen years ago) link
and then i realise that this is about twice what i paid for my dvd player...
― koogs (koogs), Friday, 5 November 2004 17:13 (nineteen years ago) link
I'm bidding on a bootleg VCD of the unaired pilot. Where did my life go wrong?
― milozauckerman (miloaukerman), Sunday, 12 June 2005 20:21 (eighteen years ago) link
― Melissa W (Melissa W), Sunday, 12 June 2005 20:27 (eighteen years ago) link
― milozauckerman (miloaukerman), Sunday, 12 June 2005 20:31 (eighteen years ago) link
― Melissa W (Melissa W), Sunday, 12 June 2005 20:40 (eighteen years ago) link
― milozauckerman (miloaukerman), Sunday, 12 June 2005 20:48 (eighteen years ago) link
― Melissa W (Melissa W), Sunday, 12 June 2005 20:51 (eighteen years ago) link
― nabiscothingy, Monday, 13 June 2005 06:25 (eighteen years ago) link
― nathalie's post modern sleaze fest (stevie nixed), Monday, 13 June 2005 08:24 (eighteen years ago) link
― J (Jay), Monday, 13 June 2005 11:57 (eighteen years ago) link
It's small - a 50MB asf file, so you can't watch it too large but it's big enough to get the point.
― milozauckerman (miloaukerman), Monday, 13 June 2005 18:18 (eighteen years ago) link
― Melissa W (Melissa W), Monday, 13 June 2005 19:49 (eighteen years ago) link
― Melissa W (Melissa W), Monday, 13 June 2005 19:51 (eighteen years ago) link
― Leon C. (Ex Leon), Monday, 13 June 2005 19:51 (eighteen years ago) link
― Melissa W (Melissa W), Monday, 13 June 2005 21:29 (eighteen years ago) link
Emma Caulfield is a RON PAUL SUPPORTER
― nabisco, Sunday, 27 January 2008 19:43 (sixteen years ago) link
She probably didn't even need to "act" until around the time Buffy's mom died
― nabisco, Sunday, 27 January 2008 19:44 (sixteen years ago) link
Man this show sucked.
― Dom Passantino, Sunday, 27 January 2008 19:53 (sixteen years ago) link
i miss the days on ILX when you could be ostracised for having the wrong opinions on season 4
― DG, Sunday, 27 January 2008 20:55 (sixteen years ago) link
so sad now
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Sunday, 27 January 2008 21:24 (sixteen years ago) link
Only a couple of weeks until LOST starts again and the thread shoots back up into new answers for another year, so don't worry too much.
― melton mowbray, Sunday, 27 January 2008 21:58 (sixteen years ago) link
I'm rewatching the entire series and got the GF addicted to it. Seasons 5-6 having way more resonance now that I'm in the appropriate life stage.
― BIG HOOS enjoys a cold mindbeer (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Saturday, 22 November 2008 08:13 (fifteen years ago) link
You feel like you understand yourself and the world you live in, everything seems really clear. and you step off the platform......then you crash back on the ground and everything feels out of joint and you feel wrong and you don't really understand anything after all and you have to build a new map from scratch.
― BIG HOOS enjoys a cold mindbeer (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Saturday, 22 November 2008 08:22 (fifteen years ago) link
Damn that makes me sound super depressed I'm just sayin I get it in a way that I didn't before.
― BIG HOOS enjoys a cold mindbeer (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Saturday, 22 November 2008 08:28 (fifteen years ago) link
"Please don't forgive me" is a heavy fuckin line.
― BIG HOOS enjoys a cold mindbeer (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Monday, 24 November 2008 09:38 (fifteen years ago) link
Anybody have thoughts on S6?
― BIG HOOS enjoys a cold mindbeer (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Monday, 24 November 2008 09:40 (fifteen years ago) link
I liked them, in a partially camp way. Though I did enjoy both those season's efforts to do more "real world" depressing non-fantasy angst as in schizophrenia, rape, drug abuse, financial struggle, family death, plummeting self-worth and annihilation, social disconnect, all that fun stuff. But I ask you, who really builds anything up again? I kid. Season 6 had less hope to it, even by the end. Friendship and love doesn't save the world every time! Possibly I sympathize with what you're saying about seeing those at the right time re: appropriate life stage.
― Nhex, Monday, 24 November 2008 10:41 (fifteen years ago) link
also it's impossible not to feel like he made one of the characters in firefly a sex worker just so she could get called a whore constantly
― STOCK FIST-PUMPER BRAD (BradNelson), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 15:02 (two years ago) link
i think whedon's writing got worse over time tbh
yep. I watched The Nevers and while it wasn't awful (I'd compare it to something like the revived Doctor Who), the degree to which it was clearly "joss plays the hits" was pretty embarrassing. If we're narrativizing his career, I think "dude ran out of ideas" is more apt than some of this remote psychopathology
― rob, Tuesday, 18 January 2022 15:57 (two years ago) link
Kevin Williamson, Amy Sherman Palladino, Aaron Sorkin, Diablo Cody, etcdef always lumped whedon in with this crew in my head so no certainly not solely responsible for this particular strain of horrible writing, god what a baleful and wearisome bunch
― Nerd Ragequit (wins), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 16:29 (two years ago) link
I (haven't seen the Nevers but) don't really share the impression that his writing got worse. I think his writing was always overall (IMO) very good, but with occasional flaws from early on.The impression I get is that after seeing more of his work, some of his tropes became more apparent through frequent use and got very, very tiresome. And none more than the notion that people are simply not allowed to have a happy relationship, because of some kind of philosophy that characters ending up together may be what the viewers want but not what they need. That's why as soon as people finally get together, one gets killed off or worse. I often wondered if that was some kind of pathetic release of Joss' own personal frustrations/inabilities.
― Valentijn, Tuesday, 18 January 2022 16:30 (two years ago) link
It definitely sheds new light on Tara's death.
― peace, man, Tuesday, 18 January 2022 16:37 (two years ago) link
Like, a really gross new light.
― peace, man, Tuesday, 18 January 2022 16:38 (two years ago) link
some of his tropes became more apparent through frequent use and got very, very tiresome. And none more than the notion that people are simply not allowed to have a happy relationship, because of some kind of philosophy that characters ending up together may be what the viewers want but not what they need
Okay not to be Cap'n Save-a-Joss, but this was always endemic to television, and increasingly so to movies.
It was everywhere 20 years ago. I would argue that it is even more present today, when franchises and reboots thereof are basically the only thing studios will bankroll.
In the US at least, television series need to be a perpetual motion machine. Storylines mostly cannot ever resolve. Hence, people can't be happy - or can't be happy for long, because that means series death. You need to keep torturing your characters and delay their gratification, and if they get any satisfaction at all it must be ripped away from them at the soonest opportunity.
In the UK, I gather, there is more appetite for series that are permitted to be limited, so it's possible for a UK television character to become happy. But a US television character cannot be allowed to be happy.
It's like, no one wants to watch Romeo and Juliet as a happily married couple, raising adorable kids and eating grapes in the sunshine until they die blissfully at the same moment in one another's arms. Because drama requires conflict. This is an problem that is significantly older than Joseph Motherfucking Whedon.
― umami dearest (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 16:43 (two years ago) link
Joss may not have invented the notion but he took it to the exteme and kind of made it his trademark. Tara gets killed the moment after renewing her relationship with Willow. Fred gets fatally possessed the episode after finally getting together with Wesley. Not to mention what happened wit Cordelia/Angel, Jenny/Giles, Anya/Xander and there are more examples, also Dollhouse Topher/whatshername etc. Buffy allowed for plenty of status quo change but not this. Compare fir example with a show like Grimm (helmed by a Buffy/Angel alum, also featuring Alexis Denisof), where two inportant side characters do hook up early on, develop to marriage and end happily ever after. You can be sure that they wouldn't have, had Joss Whedon been running that show.
― Valentijn, Tuesday, 18 January 2022 17:26 (two years ago) link
Kevin Williamson, Amy Sherman Palladino, Aaron Sorkin, Diablo Cody, etc
def always lumped whedon in with this crew in my head so no certainly not solely responsible for this particular strain of horrible writing, god what a baleful and wearisome bunch
― Nerd Ragequit (wins), Tuesday, January 18, 2022 11:29 AM (fifty-seven minutes ago)
tbf I meant to include a few writers I'm actually fond of here, but I blanked on a good example (I did mention Succession later). Maybe Milch? One of the things I hated most in that Vice piece was the bit about how it's bad when it "sounds like a writer wrote that," a terrible philistine opinion. Lord save us from a Deadwood with naturalistic dialogue
― rob, Tuesday, 18 January 2022 17:40 (two years ago) link
whedon's shows were def celebrated to some degree for his willingness to off major characters
the moment this stopped being effective for me and revealed itself as a rotten, lazy and emotionally manipulative trope was wash's death in serenity
― STOCK FIST-PUMPER BRAD (BradNelson), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 17:43 (two years ago) link
actually tara's death never landed for me either but they also barely developed her character imo
― STOCK FIST-PUMPER BRAD (BradNelson), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 17:44 (two years ago) link
Agreed on Serenity/Wash. The movie also took out Book, who had a ton of backstory to explore.
Grimm - Monroe/Rosalie were great, plus they had the Nick/Juliette/Adalind triangle for The Drama.
― the body of a spider... (scampering alpaca), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 17:52 (two years ago) link
xp to rob otm I didn’t read the vice thing but “nobody talks like this!” never seemed a valuable criticism to me esp in these cases where “this is insufferable” is closer to the mark
― Nerd Ragequit (wins), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 17:57 (two years ago) link
bunheads was good, yr insufferable
― mark s, Tuesday, 18 January 2022 17:59 (two years ago) link
i will stump for williamson, cody, and specific sherman-palladino projects (first three seasons of gg and, as mentioned, bunheads. mrs. maisel is an awful show from hell imo but i get why people like it)
― STOCK FIST-PUMPER BRAD (BradNelson), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 18:02 (two years ago) link
wins otm
nobody talked like the people in Shakespeare either
or Woolf, Joyce, Beckett, etc.
― umami dearest (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 18:03 (two years ago) link
I don’t actually know know as-p (name is kind of annoying tho) always avoided her stuff for the very reason that I get tired of these things that aren’t comedy (& thus free of the necessity to be funny) but everything must be a quip anyway Williamson & sorkin are the worst to me but with all of them it’s like there can be value right up to the point where the water torture of the dialogue just becomes shut up shut up shut UP
― Nerd Ragequit (wins), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 18:11 (two years ago) link
know-know it’s what it’s called when you know a hyphenated creator
― Nerd Ragequit (wins), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 18:13 (two years ago) link
The movie also took out Book, who had a ton of backstory to explore.
book was always more of a theoretically interesting character than an actually interesting character, but the movie still did him very dirty
― roflrofl fight (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 19:21 (two years ago) link
For me it was earlier, with Fred's possession in Angel. The episode 'A Hole in the World', written and directed by Joss himself, is often regarded as one of the series' best episodes. But I couldn't see what happened to Fred as simply part of the story anymore, it was Joss doing his thing again. With an entire episode to hammer in the fact that this was what was happening and there was nothing to be done about it.I like Illyria and the subsequent episodes a lot, but dislike 'A Hole in the World' & Fred's death for more than merely storyline reasons. Also because it is the first thing to happen right after her one moment of relationship bliss with Wesley.
To be fair, the Serenity movie did give us the one Whedonverse relationship to make it to the end (Kaylee/Simon). Hollywood pressure?
― Valentijn, Tuesday, 18 January 2022 19:58 (two years ago) link
he expected actors to say the lines he had written for them
isn't this generally how it works?
i know there are directors who believe in improvisation and i imagine most actors enjoy having that extra input/freedom but i kind of thought that was fairly rare. particularly if the person who wrote the script is also the director
― mookieproof, Tuesday, 18 January 2022 19:59 (two years ago) link
Depends on the kind of film/show, comedy that involves the actors riffing off each other obviously has a lot more room for off-the-cuff improv, sometimes to the detriment (e.g. Ghostbusters 2016)
If it's a gazillion dollar superhero movie with a troubled production, and things are already tense and difficult, you could see it causing some problems if some of the cast suddenly decide to go off-script.
― "Spaghetti" Thompson (Pheeel), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 20:21 (two years ago) link
xp
I got the impression that at a certain point Whedon lost interest in running a cohesive show or writing solid episodes that progressed the narrative and became more focused on showing that he could do anything he wanted to. Hence, he can write a Lynchian dream episode, or an existentialist drama, or a musical, or in this case, an operatic tragedy, and if the effect on the audience seems gross and manipulative well that’s too bad because he’s going to write his operatic tragedy.
― JoeStork, Tuesday, 18 January 2022 20:23 (two years ago) link
don't forget the puppet episode of Angel
― umami dearest (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 20:38 (two years ago) link
pic.twitter.com/vNBgoRPVOW— charisma carpenter (@AllCharisma) January 18, 2022
― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 18 January 2022 20:44 (two years ago) link
xpost puppet episode was by Ben Edlund, bit of an undervalued contributor to the latter seasons of Angel (and Firefly)
― "Spaghetti" Thompson (Pheeel), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 20:52 (two years ago) link
<3 charisma carpenter forever
― horseshoe, Tuesday, 18 January 2022 20:56 (two years ago) link
the Vulture profile was so so satisfying to read...novelistic!
and creator of the tick!!!
xxp
― roflrofl fight (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 20:56 (two years ago) link
i will stump for williamson, cody, and specific sherman-palladino projects
me too. I know people hated Juno and in fact I can barely remember it, but Cody wrote the very very good Young Adult and Tully, which more than makes up for any other crimes. Also I like GG and Bunheads and yes, Maisel. Fuck you all!
― akm, Tuesday, 18 January 2022 21:25 (two years ago) link
jennifer's body is one of my favorite movies of all time
― STOCK FIST-PUMPER BRAD (BradNelson), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 21:30 (two years ago) link
oh yeah that's good too, forgot about that one. I'd say Diablo Cody is good more often than not.
― akm, Tuesday, 18 January 2022 21:32 (two years ago) link
I do want to see Jennifer’s Body, Juno is horribly written but maybe that one is explicitly going for the grating vibe of the very bad screenwriters then in vogue such as sorkin and williamson
― Nerd Ragequit (wins), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 21:54 (two years ago) link
xxpost yeah i agree horeshoe, i thought it was v well written & constructed
― terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 22:02 (two years ago) link
Even Kevin Williamson's Dawson's Creek house style is, in retrospect, much less annoying than Whedonism.
― papal hotwife (milo z), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 22:06 (two years ago) link
lol i somehow didn't know williamson co-developed the vampire diaries, guy cornered the teen trash tv market over two separate decades
― STOCK FIST-PUMPER BRAD (BradNelson), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 22:27 (two years ago) link
i didnt know that either
― terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 22:29 (two years ago) link
I love how when people talk about this dork, its like "the all-singing episode!" "the puppet episode!"
Yeah sounds great, sign me up for this shit
― jpg trouble in wallo gina (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 22:30 (two years ago) link
Scrubs was pulling that shit all the time too, yo
― umami dearest (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 22:32 (two years ago) link
Yeah, I'm not out here trying to separate the art from the artist on whoever made Scrubs
― jpg trouble in wallo gina (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 22:33 (two years ago) link
the guy who made scrubs is bill lawrence who also makes ted lasso
― roflrofl fight (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 22:41 (two years ago) link
Joss Whedon might be an abusive narcissist but at least he didn't foist Zach Braff upon the world?
― papal hotwife (milo z), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 22:43 (two years ago) link
it all just sucksi was a huge fan of every whedon show, esp buffy - for a while i even lurked on the messageboard they reference in the vulture piece now it’s like i can’t even rewatch an old episode of buffy without thinking of him & all of his bullshit. i dont always struggle separating art from artist but so much of him & his voice is in these shows that it’s almost impossible to even revisit them anymore and to be clear i’m not saying this in an “oh poor me” way - it’s more just, i’m fucking mad that he has ruined my enjoyment of these shows that i genuinely loved. and that i never knew he was actively ruining them the whole time
― terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 18 January 2022 23:26 (two years ago) link
I had a class with the professor they mention in the article who started Whedon Studies. He wrote a book about Bukowski!
― i cannot help if you made yourself not funny (forksclovetofu), Wednesday, 19 January 2022 05:18 (two years ago) link
now it’s like i can’t even rewatch an old episode of buffy without thinking of him & all of his bullshit. i dont always struggle separating art from artist but so much of him & his voice is in these shows that it’s almost impossible to even revisit them anymore
I can see that and it sucks indeed. I have less trouble with it myself as there were so many other people involved in the end products, especially the cast who also separate the art from the artist: see, for example, this which happened very recently. Several cast members -including Charisma Carpenter- fondly talking about the show and their characters.
― Valentijn, Wednesday, 19 January 2022 08:36 (two years ago) link
Has managed to avoid the Whedon-stink more than Firefly for me, put it on today and skipped S1 still just pure fun.
― papal hotwife (milo z), Thursday, 22 December 2022 03:08 (one year ago) link
SMG’s memorable smackdown of Whedon makes me retroactively like her performance a bit more
Realise I’ve never seen the second season - jumped on at S3 and never bothered with the first two
― Chuck_Tatum, Thursday, 22 December 2022 14:49 (one year ago) link
second season probably has the best overall season arc, and by far the best spike scenes, but the episode-to-episode execution was the best in season 3
you should def watch season 2, is what i'm saying, but maybe start with the episode called "school hard"
― comedy khadafi (voodoo chili), Thursday, 22 December 2022 14:56 (one year ago) link
Booo the first episode of season 2 is great, don’t miss it. Also I recommend Welcome To The Hellmouth, The Harvest, Angel, The Puppet Show and Prophecy Girl from Season 1, all quality TV.
― Godzilla: (laughs) You are a fool, Mozart. You will never defeat me. (a hoy hoy), Friday, 23 December 2022 00:36 (one year ago) link