I get this vision of Dan leading around a herd of kids a la the Pied Piper.
I have the omnibus of this sucker sitting around. Like too much else in my apartment, one day I'll actually read it.
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 7 July 2003 14:39 (twenty years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 7 July 2003 14:40 (twenty years ago) link
― mark s (mark s), Monday, 7 July 2003 14:40 (twenty years ago) link
― Ed (dali), Monday, 7 July 2003 14:40 (twenty years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 7 July 2003 14:46 (twenty years ago) link
― Ed (dali), Monday, 7 July 2003 14:47 (twenty years ago) link
― RickyT (RickyT), Monday, 7 July 2003 14:49 (twenty years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 7 July 2003 14:51 (twenty years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 7 July 2003 14:53 (twenty years ago) link
― Maria (Maria), Monday, 7 July 2003 14:54 (twenty years ago) link
i shold def try and read it before the movie, i suppose (its also being made into a theatre production).
― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 7 July 2003 14:54 (twenty years ago) link
Only sort of. The Potter books are episodic, for one thing, and although there's an overarching plot throughout the series, the books are more concerned with "so, in year two, this stuff happened, and also that other plot got advanced a half-inch or so." There are differences in tone and theme (for lack of a less grammar-schooly term) and whatnot, too, but I think that's the difference you'd notice first.
Also ... post again when you finish the trilogy? Cause the third book is very different, and I know a lot of people were put off by that.
― Tep (ktepi), Monday, 7 July 2003 14:54 (twenty years ago) link
― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 7 July 2003 14:57 (twenty years ago) link
― Maria (Maria), Monday, 7 July 2003 14:58 (twenty years ago) link
Not yet. Check back in a couple of years and I most likely will.
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 7 July 2003 14:58 (twenty years ago) link
― Archel (Archel), Monday, 7 July 2003 14:58 (twenty years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 7 July 2003 14:59 (twenty years ago) link
― Archel (Archel), Monday, 7 July 2003 15:02 (twenty years ago) link
― Tep (ktepi), Monday, 7 July 2003 15:09 (twenty years ago) link
― Tep (ktepi), Monday, 7 July 2003 15:11 (twenty years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 7 July 2003 15:15 (twenty years ago) link
― caitlin (caitlin), Monday, 7 July 2003 15:44 (twenty years ago) link
― joni, Monday, 7 July 2003 15:56 (twenty years ago) link
― Sam (chirombo), Monday, 7 July 2003 15:57 (twenty years ago) link
My brother and I have spent hours arguing over these books, but my kids won't even want to read them before age 12, at which point my daughter will be all over them.
― Neudonym, Monday, 7 July 2003 16:07 (twenty years ago) link
Whether it is or not, Steven King did just that in his review of the new Potter book. He claims that Order of the Phoenix is better than any of the books in the books in this series.
― Nicole (Nicole), Monday, 7 July 2003 17:51 (twenty years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 7 July 2003 17:53 (twenty years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 7 July 2003 17:57 (twenty years ago) link
What King probably is reacting strongly to, though, is that Pullman pisses off an inordinate number of writers by giving interviews in which he comes across like he thinks he's the only writer to ever work in a genre and write stories which are about more than dragons and robots and robot dragons -- that it hadn't occurred to anyone else to address some kind of, you know, theme, and possibly employ some characterization and so forth. I like his books, but he's definitely part of this "everyone sucks except me, and possibly several people who are now dead" recent generation of writers.
― Tep (ktepi), Monday, 7 July 2003 17:58 (twenty years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 7 July 2003 18:01 (twenty years ago) link
... not, like I said, that I'm projecting or anything :)
― Tep (ktepi), Monday, 7 July 2003 18:04 (twenty years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 7 July 2003 18:08 (twenty years ago) link
And Stephen King is not innocent hisself. Maybe skeered though.
― Neudonym, Monday, 7 July 2003 18:10 (twenty years ago) link
I think in this case -- I'd have to read what he actually said -- King was just blinded. I like both Harry Potter and Pullman, but I can't see how anyone could argue that Order of the Phoenix is better than the Pullman books. It's got that whole "it's about damn time it came out"/"hunger is the best spice" thing going for it, granted.
― Tep (ktepi), Monday, 7 July 2003 18:14 (twenty years ago) link
Hey now, back up -- I wasn't saying THAT. As noted above, I haven't even read his books yet (though I know something of the general story and approve).
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 7 July 2003 18:18 (twenty years ago) link
My own feeling is that they are much better than Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy, which is their only contemporary competitor. Will kids (and adults as well) still be wild about Harry 100 years from now, or 200? My best guess is that he will indeed stand time's test and wind up on a shelf where only the best are kept; I think Harry will take his place with Alice, Huck, Frodo, and Dorothy, and this is one series not just for the decade, but for the ages.
I would reprint the whole review but I don't want the copyright police after me.
― Nicole (Nicole), Monday, 7 July 2003 18:22 (twenty years ago) link
PUT DOWN THE COMPUTER, NICOLE.
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 7 July 2003 18:25 (twenty years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 7 July 2003 18:31 (twenty years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 7 July 2003 18:33 (twenty years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 7 July 2003 18:35 (twenty years ago) link
― Nicole (Nicole), Monday, 7 July 2003 18:38 (twenty years ago) link
http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/pic200_web/drp000/p043/p04307mc5wb.jpg
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 7 July 2003 18:42 (twenty years ago) link
(Is it Pas or Pax? God, I'm hopeless.)
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 7 July 2003 18:43 (twenty years ago) link
― Nicole (Nicole), Monday, 7 July 2003 18:43 (twenty years ago) link
― Neudonym, Monday, 7 July 2003 18:48 (twenty years ago) link
I suspect the substance of the themes and the brilliant bravura superscience will be lost in a movie adaptation, which will surely aim at the HP audience. I think these are genuinely great books on all kinds of levels, far better than Tolkien in pretty much every way. They are probably my favourite children's books ever, even ahead of Alan Garner. Well made, a lot of it will look really fabulous, especially duelling polar bears in armour. I hope they don't cop out on the seriousness, or the religious and scientific content.
― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 7 July 2003 18:50 (twenty years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 7 July 2003 18:53 (twenty years ago) link
― Neudonym, Monday, 7 July 2003 19:02 (twenty years ago) link
― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 7 July 2003 19:21 (twenty years ago) link
However, I wouldn't compare them to the H.P. tales - I think that _HDM_ is meant for a more mature audience, and the stories are infinitely more complex. While the H.P. story line is becoming increasingly complex and addresses more issues, the stories still make me think of fifth- and sixth-grade student readers, whereas I think of seventh- and eight-grades as being the starting points for _HDM_ (which is the same range for The Lord of the Rings in my mind, though The Hobbit works with younger little ones.
― I'm Passing Open Windows (Ms Laura), Monday, 7 July 2003 20:46 (twenty years ago) link
will’s earth has been terribly pointlessly strung out. i thought it be dramatically acceptable but now i’m convinced they should have followed the books.
― Fizzles, Tuesday, 24 December 2019 21:49 (four years ago) link
Yes, I agree. Or they at least should have waited until, say, the penultimate episode to introduce that storyline.
― chap, Thursday, 26 December 2019 17:58 (four years ago) link
I don't know that there's a good solution to the Will problem, because wherever you put his storyline, it's always going to be terribly boring. I thought it was smart to get all the introductory stuff over early and have him and Lyra walking into the Cittagazze world at the same time, but I agree it got distracting to be constantly cutting back to Will's world where absolutely nothing of interest is happening.
Thought the real weak point of this series was Serafina Pekkala. Every scene she was in was astonishingly terrible. I started cringing in embarrassment every time she teleported in.
― Lily Dale, Thursday, 26 December 2019 19:00 (four years ago) link
no i think they made the wrong decision. in the second book PP gets him to cittagazze v quickly. it takes ten episodes in the tv series.
― Fizzles, Thursday, 26 December 2019 19:16 (four years ago) link
Yeah but this way the next season doesn't have to start with this boring storyline about a kid who's not Lyra. And it probably lessens resentment toward Will if we know him from the beginning. Agree they spent too much time on it though.
― Lily Dale, Thursday, 26 December 2019 22:24 (four years ago) link
Could easily be a single episode at the start of season 2. I'm kind of bummed they did it like this, his introduction in book 2 is one of my favorite parts of the series.
― Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Thursday, 26 December 2019 23:08 (four years ago) link
agreed on serafina btw. and also on mark’s point about communities. the gyptians are dull af.
― Fizzles, Friday, 27 December 2019 17:27 (four years ago) link
Forgive the thread spam, but I wanted to note that this show's 2019 season is nominated in the 2019 ILX TV poll:
ILX's Best Television of 2019 Poll / VOTING AND CAMPAIGNING THREAD / Voting Ends January 31
If you like this show and you'd like to see it have a good showing in the poll (running in February) all you need to do is submit a ballot including it and your other favorites (4 minimum, 25 maximum, organized by your favorite to least favorite) to forksclovetofu at gmail by end of day today. It'll take five minutes; get to it!
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Friday, 31 January 2020 14:28 (four years ago) link
I'm about four fifths of the way through La Belle Sauvage and it's FINALLY getting kind of interesting. What an annoyingly structured novel - this interminable, often dull build up, then after the big event eventually happens everything feels rushed and underwritten. Might be a Rowling-esque case of a writer getting too big for an editor to reign in.
― chap, Tuesday, 27 October 2020 10:55 (three years ago) link
I have heard that the second one is better.
― chap, Tuesday, 27 October 2020 10:56 (three years ago) link
The second one is a lot more adventuresome and less stately, if that’s your preference, but I enjoyed both. I sort of agree about the lack of editing, but they’re both a breeze to read, and better written (clearly) than Rowling, so I found their maximalism luxurious rather than tiring, even though Secret Commonwealth gets a little generic in places.
That said, I don’t think he’s written a better book in the series than the very first one, Northern Lights. But the last two were both (for me) more fun than Subtle Knife and Amber Spyglass (which might be the worst book in the series imo)
― Chuck_Tatum, Tuesday, 27 October 2020 16:08 (three years ago) link
And Secret Commonwealth’s buildup is even longer iirc!
― Chuck_Tatum, Tuesday, 27 October 2020 16:10 (three years ago) link
but they’re both a breeze to read
See I found the first two thirds of Belle Sauvage a bit of a slog!
I agree Northern Lights remains his peak. So richly atmospheric, and just a great story.
― chap, Tuesday, 27 October 2020 17:16 (three years ago) link
In that case I’m definitely interested in hearing what you think of Secret Commonwealth! It does share (consciously, I think) the “on a journey” aspect of Northern Lights. There’s more old-fashioned suspense than the books inbetween.
― Chuck_Tatum, Tuesday, 27 October 2020 20:13 (three years ago) link
(but you might find it a colossal bore, too)
I don’t think he’s written a better book in the series than the very first one, Northern Lights. But the last two were both (for me) more fun than Subtle Knife and Amber Spyglass (which might be the worst book in the series imo)
I agree with this. So far the new series hasn't reached the heights of The Golden Compass/Northern Lights for me, but I do find it much more consistent.
The plot structure of La Belle Sauvage made me wonder if maybe Pullman had been watching Night of the Hunter.
― Lily Dale, Tuesday, 27 October 2020 20:34 (three years ago) link
Oh yes, good shout!
I imagine I'll be reading the Secret Commonwealth eventually.
― chap, Tuesday, 27 October 2020 21:18 (three years ago) link
Secret Commonwealth is my favorite of *all* his books.
― mildew and sanctimony (soda), Tuesday, 27 October 2020 21:39 (three years ago) link
i'm liking the pre/se-quel trilogy a lot, especially how it's exploring lyra's world. he did such a great job building the world in northern lights, and while i'm glad pullman decided to set off into the multiverse, i'm glad that the new trilogy is taking the time to marinate in the society and the mystery of the world.
really loved the *spoiler* papal assassination scene *spoiler* in the secret commonwealth, the way it wove in the sly, character-based humor to undercut the horrific action.
― glengarry gary beers (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 27 October 2020 21:45 (three years ago) link
I don’t remember much about it, to be honest - there’s a surgery sequence that’s pretty existing and twisty iirc One not-very-serious flaw - there’s a lot of stuff about how unusual it is for daemons and humans to split - then it seems like everyone’s doing it
― Chuck_Tatum, Tuesday, 27 October 2020 22:36 (three years ago) link
that feels less like an inconsistency in the storytelling than the scales dropping from lyra's eyes–another "taboo" that her authoritarian theocratic society wants to pretend doesn't exist.
― glengarry gary beers (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 27 October 2020 23:01 (three years ago) link
A taboo and a minority group - the kind that's treated as invisible but becomes a lot more visible if you happen to be part of it.
― Lily Dale, Tuesday, 27 October 2020 23:08 (three years ago) link
right, and that's a metaphor that pullman makes clear when lyra meets the refugee girl who lost her daemon.
― glengarry gary beers (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 27 October 2020 23:12 (three years ago) link
Ah that makes sense
― Chuck_Tatum, Tuesday, 27 October 2020 23:20 (three years ago) link
I just finished season 1 of the HBO adaptation. The first bunch of episodes were a bit dispiriting, with so many corny moments. I understand wanting to show various side plots instead of focusing in Lyra, but I would've preferred sticking with the book's structure. Lin-Manual Miranda was a particularly bad call. I was also not excited about starting the Will plot in S1, but it ended up making sense overall. The show was really redeemed in the last few episodes, which went much darker, and the finale ended on a pleasingly ambiguous note.
― Mr. Cacciatore (Moodles), Tuesday, 27 October 2020 23:22 (three years ago) link
im cautiously optimistic for season 2, despite a trailer that seemed to be deliberately obfuscatory
― glengarry gary beers (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 27 October 2020 23:31 (three years ago) link
love ruth wilson so much
― mark s, Sunday, 8 November 2020 21:09 (three years ago) link
(s2e1 dropped)
― mark s, Sunday, 8 November 2020 21:10 (three years ago) link
She does sadistic almost *too* well.
― Vanishing Point (Chinaski), Sunday, 8 November 2020 21:45 (three years ago) link
finally got round to s2e2
― mark s, Sunday, 29 November 2020 21:20 (three years ago) link
Not feeling this season yet. Both kids’ acting was pretty poor throughout.
― the thing that the angry Left forbids (hardcore dilettante), Sunday, 29 November 2020 21:55 (three years ago) link
Forgive the thread spam, but I wanted to note that this show's 2020 season is nominated in the 2020 ILX TV poll:
ILX's Best Television of 2020 Poll / VOTING AND CAMPAIGNING THREAD / Voting Ends After January 29, 2021
If you like this show and you'd like to see it have a good showing in the poll (running in February) all you need to do is submit a ballot including it and your other favorites (3 minimum, 25 maximum, ranked by your favorite to least favorite) to forksclovetofu at gmail. It'll take five minutes; get to it!
― the serious avant-garde universalist right now (forksclovetofu), Thursday, 21 January 2021 19:46 (three years ago) link
finished season 2 the other day! i thought it was a big improvement on season 1 (especially in the daemon department, aka the most important department) while still feeling like it's missing something essential and ineffable that the books had. it seems like they're neutering the "killing god" aspect of the books, which might make season 3 very weird, and they've totally messed up scoresby and the witches. but they've got the will/lyra relationship down, and ruth wilson is transfixing even as she's completely different from my conception of the character from the books lol
― boz conspiracy by toby hus (voodoo chili), Thursday, 21 January 2021 20:02 (three years ago) link
Lin-Manual Miranda is terrible in this!
― Dan I., Saturday, 30 January 2021 20:17 (three years ago) link
horrifically miscast, it’s true
― tiwa-nty one savage (voodoo chili), Saturday, 30 January 2021 20:25 (three years ago) link
Season 3 is 2 episodes in - one of the Belgian reviewers called this whole series "probably the best fantasy series ever"
― StanM, Wednesday, 7 December 2022 17:55 (one year ago) link
I will probably watch the last season, but I found season 2 to be a bit dull
― Muad'Doob (Moodles), Wednesday, 7 December 2022 18:00 (one year ago) link
waiting with bated breath for the final book of dust book lol, but i will def check out this season. i have absolutely no idea how they're gonna manage to adapt this final book, but i am intrigued to see how they fail
― comedy khadafi (voodoo chili), Wednesday, 7 December 2022 18:55 (one year ago) link
it's years since i read these and i remember book three as hurried -- this version has a measured pace to it that is maybe righting that?
― mark s, Tuesday, 3 January 2023 19:17 (one year ago) link
just got a massive goosebumps moment so that's a 👍🏽
sadly it involved lin-manuel miranda 👎🏽
― mark s, Tuesday, 3 January 2023 22:13 (one year ago) link
Didn’t watch the first season past a couple episodes as it seemed to be sticking to the original book so closely, and because I wasn’t enjoying McAvoy and the Lyra actress
Super curious to see this season though - thought the third book was disappointing but I’m interested to see how they do the final battle and God and the wheely creatures and whatnot
― Chuck_Tatum, Wednesday, 4 January 2023 00:01 (one year ago) link
I enjoyed in the 3rd book how the literal actual death of god was like a passing thing buried in the middle of a paragraph and you might have missed it.
― The land of dreams and endless remorse (hardcore dilettante), Wednesday, 4 January 2023 06:10 (one year ago) link
It was the same in the show I now realise. There was this very brief scene with a large crystal cube that has a person/angel curled up in it that they disintegrated. I didnt understand what it was but I do now.
― Stoop Crone (Trayce), Wednesday, 4 January 2023 07:27 (one year ago) link
the wheely creatures look a bit too like if snorky from the banana splits turned up in avatar -- and the rush through the plot-points is beginning to arrive: mary's discovery of the amber lens seemed both too easy and under-explained
its various settings are still great and i feel that dafne keen has grown into the role and the character now that lyra (like keen) is a little older
ruth wilson remains MVP
― mark s, Wednesday, 4 January 2023 10:41 (one year ago) link
iorek byrnison giving mcavoy a richly deserved hard time lol
claws shd have been out tho
― mark s, Wednesday, 4 January 2023 18:47 (one year ago) link
the battle in heaven was p well realised IMO, tho it also makes you realise how dr who-ish the steampunky dimension of this story can get -- like the story will be resolved when who (or whoever) gets to press a red button on the head villain's dash which reads "my evil universe-transforming plan into explodey ruins"
(does the book use the term "mutiverse"? it's not wrong exactly but i was wincing every time azrael said it)
one ep to go
― mark s, Thursday, 5 January 2023 11:21 (one year ago) link
Of what I remember, Asriel & Mrs Coulter's motives get increasingly confusing in the last book, like they're two characters from an old Gossip Girl episode whose motivations change on a dime, just because plot
― Chuck_Tatum, Thursday, 5 January 2023 13:48 (one year ago) link
in that case -- as my memory of the book is v spotty (i suspect bcz flaws in book but also a long time since i read it) -- the TV show handles this with rather more clarity even when their motivation is intensely conflicted (towards lyra, towards one another). with her especially -- more thx to ruth wilson than philip pullman maybe? -- we have learned always to read everything she does thru a "things not as they seem" filter. metatron is amusingly rude abt her to her face ("you are a cess-pit of moral filth") but she is NOT AT ALL BOTHERED and her face just says "i know you are but what am i"
― mark s, Thursday, 5 January 2023 14:02 (one year ago) link
Really enjoyed the whole series of this. The Amber Spyglass was prob my least favourite of the books and I did wonder how some things could possibly work on screen, but they pulled it off. Both young leads loads better in the last season. Not a spoiler, but the visuals for the physical battle in heaven and plunging fall were absolutely stunning.
― that mustardless plate (Bill A), Thursday, 5 January 2023 17:00 (one year ago) link