HIS DARK MATERIALS

I get this vision of Dan leading around a herd of kids a la the Pied Piper.

I have the omnibus of this sucker sitting around. Like too much else in my apartment, one day I'll actually read it.

i shold def try and read it before the movie, i suppose (its also being made into a theatre production).

Only sort of. The Potter books are episodic, for one thing, and although there's an overarching plot throughout the series, the books are more concerned with "so, in year two, this stuff happened, and also that other plot got advanced a half-inch or so." There are differences in tone and theme (for lack of a less grammar-schooly term) and whatnot, too, but I think that's the difference you'd notice first.

Also ... post again when you finish the trilogy? Cause the third book is very different, and I know a lot of people were put off by that.

Not yet. Check back in a couple of years and I most likely will.

My brother and I have spent hours arguing over these books, but my kids won't even want to read them before age 12, at which point my daughter will be all over them.

Whether it is or not, Steven King did just that in his review of the new Potter book. He claims that Order of the Phoenix is better than any of the books in the books in this series.

What King probably is reacting strongly to, though, is that Pullman pisses off an inordinate number of writers by giving interviews in which he comes across like he thinks he's the only writer to ever work in a genre and write stories which are about more than dragons and robots and robot dragons -- that it hadn't occurred to anyone else to address some kind of, you know, theme, and possibly employ some characterization and so forth. I like his books, but he's definitely part of this "everyone sucks except me, and possibly several people who are now dead" recent generation of writers.

... not, like I said, that I'm projecting or anything :)

And Stephen King is not innocent hisself. Maybe skeered though.

I think in this case -- I'd have to read what he actually said -- King was just blinded. I like both Harry Potter and Pullman, but I can't see how anyone could argue that Order of the Phoenix is better than the Pullman books. It's got that whole "it's about damn time it came out"/"hunger is the best spice" thing going for it, granted.

Hey now, back up -- I wasn't saying THAT. As noted above, I haven't even read his books yet (though I know something of the general story and approve).

My own feeling is that they are much better than Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy, which is their only contemporary competitor. Will kids (and adults as well) still be wild about Harry 100 years from now, or 200? My best guess is that he will indeed stand time's test and wind up on a shelf where only the best are kept; I think Harry will take his place with Alice, Huck, Frodo, and Dorothy, and this is one series not just for the decade, but for the ages.

I would reprint the whole review but I don't want the copyright police after me.

PUT DOWN THE COMPUTER, NICOLE.

http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/pic200_web/drp000/p043/p04307mc5wb.jpg

(Is it Pas or Pax? God, I'm hopeless.)

I suspect the substance of the themes and the brilliant bravura superscience will be lost in a movie adaptation, which will surely aim at the HP audience. I think these are genuinely great books on all kinds of levels, far better than Tolkien in pretty much every way. They are probably my favourite children's books ever, even ahead of Alan Garner. Well made, a lot of it will look really fabulous, especially duelling polar bears in armour. I hope they don't cop out on the seriousness, or the religious and scientific content.

However, I wouldn't compare them to the H.P. tales - I think that _HDM_ is meant for a more mature audience, and the stories are infinitely more complex. While the H.P. story line is becoming increasingly complex and addresses more issues, the stories still make me think of fifth- and sixth-grade student readers, whereas I think of seventh- and eight-grades as being the starting points for _HDM_ (which is the same range for The Lord of the Rings in my mind, though The Hobbit works with younger little ones.

will’s earth has been terribly pointlessly strung out. i thought it be dramatically acceptable but now i’m convinced they should have followed the books.

Yes, I agree. Or they at least should have waited until, say, the penultimate episode to introduce that storyline.

I don't know that there's a good solution to the Will problem, because wherever you put his storyline, it's always going to be terribly boring. I thought it was smart to get all the introductory stuff over early and have him and Lyra walking into the Cittagazze world at the same time, but I agree it got distracting to be constantly cutting back to Will's world where absolutely nothing of interest is happening.

Thought the real weak point of this series was Serafina Pekkala. Every scene she was in was astonishingly terrible. I started cringing in embarrassment every time she teleported in.

no i think they made the wrong decision. in the second book PP gets him to cittagazze v quickly. it takes ten episodes in the tv series.

Yeah but this way the next season doesn't have to start with this boring storyline about a kid who's not Lyra. And it probably lessens resentment toward Will if we know him from the beginning. Agree they spent too much time on it though.

Could easily be a single episode at the start of season 2. I'm kind of bummed they did it like this, his introduction in book 2 is one of my favorite parts of the series.

agreed on serafina btw. and also on mark’s point about communities. the gyptians are dull af.

Forgive the thread spam, but I wanted to note that this show's 2019 season is nominated in the 2019 ILX TV poll:

ILX's Best Television of 2019 Poll / VOTING AND CAMPAIGNING THREAD / Voting Ends January 31

If you like this show and you'd like to see it have a good showing in the poll (running in February) all you need to do is submit a ballot including it and your other favorites (4 minimum, 25 maximum, organized by your favorite to least favorite) to forksclovetofu at gmail by end of day today. It'll take five minutes; get to it!

I'm about four fifths of the way through La Belle Sauvage and it's FINALLY getting kind of interesting. What an annoyingly structured novel - this interminable, often dull build up, then after the big event eventually happens everything feels rushed and underwritten. Might be a Rowling-esque case of a writer getting too big for an editor to reign in.

I have heard that the second one is better.

The second one is a lot more adventuresome and less stately, if that’s your preference, but I enjoyed both. I sort of agree about the lack of editing, but they’re both a breeze to read, and better written (clearly) than Rowling, so I found their maximalism luxurious rather than tiring, even though Secret Commonwealth gets a little generic in places.

That said, I don’t think he’s written a better book in the series than the very first one, Northern Lights. But the last two were both (for me) more fun than Subtle Knife and Amber Spyglass (which might be the worst book in the series imo)

And Secret Commonwealth’s buildup is even longer iirc!

but they’re both a breeze to read

See I found the first two thirds of Belle Sauvage a bit of a slog!

I agree Northern Lights remains his peak. So richly atmospheric, and just a great story.

In that case I’m definitely interested in hearing what you think of Secret Commonwealth! It does share (consciously, I think) the “on a journey” aspect of Northern Lights. There’s more old-fashioned suspense than the books inbetween.

(but you might find it a colossal bore, too)

I don’t think he’s written a better book in the series than the very first one, Northern Lights. But the last two were both (for me) more fun than Subtle Knife and Amber Spyglass (which might be the worst book in the series imo)

I agree with this. So far the new series hasn't reached the heights of The Golden Compass/Northern Lights for me, but I do find it much more consistent.

The plot structure of La Belle Sauvage made me wonder if maybe Pullman had been watching Night of the Hunter.

Oh yes, good shout!

I imagine I'll be reading the Secret Commonwealth eventually.

Secret Commonwealth is my favorite of *all* his books.

i'm liking the pre/se-quel trilogy a lot, especially how it's exploring lyra's world. he did such a great job building the world in northern lights, and while i'm glad pullman decided to set off into the multiverse, i'm glad that the new trilogy is taking the time to marinate in the society and the mystery of the world.

really loved the *spoiler* papal assassination scene *spoiler* in the secret commonwealth, the way it wove in the sly, character-based humor to undercut the horrific action.

I don’t remember much about it, to be honest - there’s a surgery sequence that’s pretty existing and twisty iirc

One not-very-serious flaw - there’s a lot of stuff about how unusual it is for daemons and humans to split - then it seems like everyone’s doing it

that feels less like an inconsistency in the storytelling than the scales dropping from lyra's eyes–another "taboo" that her authoritarian theocratic society wants to pretend doesn't exist.

A taboo and a minority group - the kind that's treated as invisible but becomes a lot more visible if you happen to be part of it.

right, and that's a metaphor that pullman makes clear when lyra meets the refugee girl who lost her daemon.

Ah that makes sense

I just finished season 1 of the HBO adaptation. The first bunch of episodes were a bit dispiriting, with so many corny moments. I understand wanting to show various side plots instead of focusing in Lyra, but I would've preferred sticking with the book's structure. Lin-Manual Miranda was a particularly bad call. I was also not excited about starting the Will plot in S1, but it ended up making sense overall. The show was really redeemed in the last few episodes, which went much darker, and the finale ended on a pleasingly ambiguous note.

im cautiously optimistic for season 2, despite a trailer that seemed to be deliberately obfuscatory

love ruth wilson so much

(s2e1 dropped)

She does sadistic almost *too* well.

finally got round to s2e2

Not feeling this season yet. Both kids’ acting was pretty poor throughout.

Forgive the thread spam, but I wanted to note that this show's 2020 season is nominated in the 2020 ILX TV poll:

ILX's Best Television of 2020 Poll / VOTING AND CAMPAIGNING THREAD / Voting Ends After January 29, 2021

If you like this show and you'd like to see it have a good showing in the poll (running in February) all you need to do is submit a ballot including it and your other favorites (3 minimum, 25 maximum, ranked by your favorite to least favorite) to forksclovetofu at gmail. It'll take five minutes; get to it!

finished season 2 the other day! i thought it was a big improvement on season 1 (especially in the daemon department, aka the most important department) while still feeling like it's missing something essential and ineffable that the books had. it seems like they're neutering the "killing god" aspect of the books, which might make season 3 very weird, and they've totally messed up scoresby and the witches. but they've got the will/lyra relationship down, and ruth wilson is transfixing even as she's completely different from my conception of the character from the books lol

Lin-Manual Miranda is terrible in this!

horrifically miscast, it’s true

Season 3 is 2 episodes in - one of the Belgian reviewers called this whole series "probably the best fantasy series ever"

I will probably watch the last season, but I found season 2 to be a bit dull

waiting with bated breath for the final book of dust book lol, but i will def check out this season. i have absolutely no idea how they're gonna manage to adapt this final book, but i am intrigued to see how they fail

it's years since i read these and i remember book three as hurried -- this version has a measured pace to it that is maybe righting that?

just got a massive goosebumps moment so that's a 👍🏽

sadly it involved lin-manuel miranda 👎🏽

Didn’t watch the first season past a couple episodes as it seemed to be sticking to the original book so closely, and because I wasn’t enjoying McAvoy and the Lyra actress

Super curious to see this season though - thought the third book was disappointing but I’m interested to see how they do the final battle and God and the wheely creatures and whatnot

I enjoyed in the 3rd book how the literal actual death of god was like a passing thing buried in the middle of a paragraph and you might have missed it.

It was the same in the show I now realise. There was this very brief scene with a large crystal cube that has a person/angel curled up in it that they disintegrated. I didnt understand what it was but I do now.

the wheely creatures look a bit too like if snorky from the banana splits turned up in avatar -- and the rush through the plot-points is beginning to arrive: mary's discovery of the amber lens seemed both too easy and under-explained

its various settings are still great and i feel that dafne keen has grown into the role and the character now that lyra (like keen) is a little older

ruth wilson remains MVP

iorek byrnison giving mcavoy a richly deserved hard time lol

claws shd have been out tho

the battle in heaven was p well realised IMO, tho it also makes you realise how dr who-ish the steampunky dimension of this story can get -- like the story will be resolved when who (or whoever) gets to press a red button on the head villain's dash which reads "my evil universe-transforming plan into explodey ruins"

(does the book use the term "mutiverse"? it's not wrong exactly but i was wincing every time azrael said it)

one ep to go

Of what I remember, Asriel & Mrs Coulter's motives get increasingly confusing in the last book, like they're two characters from an old Gossip Girl episode whose motivations change on a dime, just because plot

in that case -- as my memory of the book is v spotty (i suspect bcz flaws in book but also a long time since i read it) -- the TV show handles this with rather more clarity even when their motivation is intensely conflicted (towards lyra, towards one another). with her especially -- more thx to ruth wilson than philip pullman maybe? -- we have learned always to read everything she does thru a "things not as they seem" filter. metatron is amusingly rude abt her to her face ("you are a cess-pit of moral filth") but she is NOT AT ALL BOTHERED and her face just says "i know you are but what am i"

Really enjoyed the whole series of this. The Amber Spyglass was prob my least favourite of the books and I did wonder how some things could possibly work on screen, but they pulled it off. Both young leads loads better in the last season. Not a spoiler, but the visuals for the physical battle in heaven and plunging fall were absolutely stunning.