Linn LM-1 or DMX drum machine in 777-9311 by Morris Day and the Time

<3 gear nerdery

(not being snarky, btw)

Dubmill, are you talking about the LinnDrum (the LM-2) or the LM-1?

tyrannized by the sense of limitless choice all the time.

^^^

are you talking about the LinnDrum (the LM-2) or the LM-1?

I'm talking about both, really. The LinnDrum was manufactured in much larger numbers, was a lot cheaper, and consequently much more widely used, but the sounds were the same as far as I'm aware (although I note that the sampling rate was slightly higher on the LinnDrum, theoretically giving the sounds a bit more top end). Certainly THAT snare is common to both. It's the ubiquity of it that got on one's nerves. For a while it was almost like EVERY record had the same drum sounds on it.

I like the Linn snare sound now because it has a period charm and is also a pleasing antidote to both the tinny, high pitched, ringing 'rock kit' snares, and the dirty-sounding, sampled (or sample style) hip hop snares (both of which types have been done to death over the last ten years or so).

i <3 this thread too

IF the only thing that the LinnDrum was good for was demos, why was it VERY popular among TOP producers and MAJOR stars?? The LinnDrum was used by for example Sting, Howard Jones and many others?

TIMELINE

In 1979/1980, the Linn (LM-1 in this case, but whatever, the Linn) was THE hot new gear.

By 1984, it was passe, in part due to the popularity of the 808, and shortly after, the DMX.

This has always been my point on that issue.

JayQuan : I always felt that Run Dmc was able to take off based on the fact that Furious 5 was in a drought ; and because they rapped over stripped down beats ; like what you did in the parks and clubs . Do you agree ?

Melle Mel : Yes...while we were caught up in all that legal stuff a lot of groups moved in . It was the right time for them...they came right in time for Mtv and that crowd....we missed all that .Sugarhill wasn't into doing videos . They were a company from the 60s , and they were still operating like Motown....They were still using the old Linn drum and the Sugarhill band while other labels had Scratching and drum machines in their songs . After our split neither faction was the same . Even after we got back together it wasn't the same.

If I truly do concede on anything, it's that the DMX became used in the US before 1984/1985 outside of Davy DMX (the kinda obscure Just Four's "Games of Life" springs to mind), but became highly visible after Davy's use on Run-DMC's singles in 1983 (so I'm not saying I'm sitting around listening to Rick James's catalog trying to prove he didn't use it, but rather, he was in the margins if so):

http://www.discogs.com/release/257372
http://www.discogs.com/release/85048

Davy is uncredited on the labels, but Larry Smith admits it was Davy in a phone interview floating around.

But I stand by the fact that Love Come Down and 777-9311 are not the DMX.

We're being silly by not offering concrete examples of these sounds/timings.

The big DMX drums and tight sequencer:

Run Dmc - Sucker mc's (US, 1983)

Davy DMX - One for the Treble (US, 1984)

Kurtis Blow - AJ Scratch (US, 1984)

Word of Mouth - King Kut (US, 1985)

The System - Don't Disturb This Groove (US, 1987)

And yeah, Art of Noise's Beat Box remains evident (UK, 1983):

(why would they call the song BEATBOX if it was all keyboard driven???)

Trevor Horn's words above I'm sure are true in nearly all other instances, as shown in Moments in Love (because clearly that is not the DMX):

And there ain't NO WAY this is the DMX:
Evelyn "Champagne" KIng - Love come down (US, 1982)

(although I would wonder if it's similar to 777-9311, with live drums overdubbed to the machine)

The Linn Drum's (as Dubmill effectively said) cardboard sounds and less rigid sequencer:
[sadly, no prince videos are on youtube that I can find, but 1980's Dirty Mind is the origin]

Grandmaster Flash & The Furious Five - The Message (US, 1982)

FAB 5 FREDDY - CHANGE THE BEAT (US, 1982)

Grandmaster Flash - Scorpio (US, 1983)

I realize my know-it-all attitude on this issue makes me a target, and yeah, shoot all day long, but the intial quesiton and a handful of subsequent points are just contrarian at best. These sounds are obvious. The timeline is not airtight, but scales aren't generally tipped in one sitting...so the more popular things become, the less popular other things become with time.

In American Black music:

The Linndrum (LM-1, whatever) became popular after Prince's Dirty Mind hit. Really true for drum machines in general within Black music...

The 808 became popular after Planet Rock hit in mid-82, sparking drum machines in Rap.

The DMX gained fame AFTER Davy's use on Run-DMC, killing the Linn's popularity, and threatening the 808's popularity.

1984/1985 released/popularized the 909, creating a varied playing field.

This is all I've ever said here.

Oh hell, 3 limit

I'll select wisely:

DMX:
Word of Mouth f. DJ Cheese- King Kut (1985, US)

Linndrum:

Grandmaster Flash & The Furious Five - The Message

Grandmaster Flash - Scorpio

The sounds and timing between these two machines are incredibly different.

I really thought this needed highlighting too, as it's late for the DMX (1987) and in the R&B context, but damn it wreaks of the DMX sequencer:

The System - Don't Disturb This Groove

We're sorry, this video is no longer available

The world is against me...

DMX drums if I ever heard them. DMX sequencer if I ever heard it:

Art of Noise - Beat Box

And there ain't NO WAY this is the DMX:
Evelyn "Champagne" KIng - Love come down (US, 1982)

I don't know if there's any information available documenting how that record was produced as opposed to people just saying 'yes it is', 'no it isn't'. For what it's worth it sounds like the DMX kick to me. The snare is harder to evaluate because it is covered by loud handclaps all the time. The claps sound like real handclaps (properly recorded - multitracked over and over, gated/reverbed), similarly the hihats and cymbals. Those elements do a good job of making it sound almost like a live drum track but I have a hunch it's a very repetitive kick and snare loop (DMX). It could even be just the DMX kick, with the drummer laying everything else over the top (minus the kick). It's interesting there's not a single deviation from the 2 & 4 on the snare throughout the record. That suggests a drum machine for the snare because any drummer would always slip in at least one roll, however minimal.

why would they call the song BEATBOX if it was all keyboard driven???

Because of the programmed beat that is the main feature of the record?

DMX sequencer if I ever heard it

It just sounds like a quantized drum pattern with lots of reverb. I don't hear anything distinctive about the way it's programmed (ie you could programme the exact same pattern into a Linn if you felt like it .. the sounds would be different but the little skips on the kick drum could be programmed exactly the same way - 16th quantize).

The sounds and timing between these two machines are incredibly different.

I don't understand what your point is. The examples you have given are different kinds of beats with different production effects applied to them. The differing styles do not prove that there is some distinctive attribute of the input method or timing on each machine that affects what comes out the other end. Yes, the Linn sounds are intrinsically a bit softer, but The Message has a laid-back pseudo-funk feel to the beat, whereas the other examples have a more machine-like feel, which is then accentuated by the heavy reverb effects on the drums. But if you listen to something like Alexander O'Neal's 'If You Were Here Tonight', you can hear the DMX working on a more rounded, mellow soul tune, and it is programmed/engineered/produced accordingly.

Programmed loops still fall offbeat with most 80s machines. Again, the point of smpte/click tracks. The DMX needed that less than any other early 80s machines.

This is the problem with my argument. If you personally don't *feel* sequencers, there's no way to prove the feel of it, and the debate defers to drum sounds.

In the 80s hip-hop producing community, the only tech debates were drum sounds, the feel of a sequencer, the feel of a board, and the flexibility/understanding of an engineer. I learned about smpte et al from wanting to understand what makes the feel of a sequencer so unique.

One of the endless debates in that community is why is Planet Rock so tight, despite the loose cannon nature of the 808 sequencer. It finally got addressed by the guys who engineered it: smpte/click track tricks, laid by Burzootie in advance to make concessions for Robie's keyboard. Just goes to show how big of a topic this is in aging hip-hop guys' worlds.

Another nerd fest in hip-hop is listening to records from 1992 to decide if it's the SP1200 or MPC60II sequencer, since that was the year the community accepted the MPC widely. This is a holdover from when the SP1200 replaced the 808 in 1987 because the sound change then was SOOO drastic.

You either feel it, or you don't, and yeah, that's room for error when debating it, depending on how much time put in with it. I *might* be wrong on Beatbox, but every time I play it, it immediately screams DMX within the first 3 beats, the same way King Kut does. Exceptionally Rigid.

Trevor Horn wasn't above varying his technique for an isolated concept. I suspect that's the case here, but again, I realize this could be in error, and difficult to debate.

x-post

With Don't Disturb this Groove, the slower tempo of the song allows for more swingtime of live effects between each kick and snare, but when you isolate the kick and snare pattern in your ear, it's still air tight rigid.

We can debate forever...sequencers have a distinct feel. This isn't made up. There's technology out there to compensate for this.

so are the closed & open hi-hat sounds on the Linn really as dope as they sound on 777-9311? or is it more due to prince's production?

pappawheelie IV i heart u. i finally saw this thread and i knew you would be dropping serious nerd science! and you were! awesome and informative thread. A+ would click again.

wiki says the cymbals were played live

― nicky lo-fi, Tuesday, November 18, 2008 1:18 AM (2 days ago) Bookmark

I vote for this answer.

x-postr, thanks m@tt...not sure I was effective at anything but ruining my reputation though, despite.

the cymbals are not live. if they are it's an obvious loop, but even so the little ruffs and double-strokes definitely sound sequenced to me.

maybe he sampled some real closed & open cymbal sounds and loaded them into a sequencer...were people doing that in '82?

I do agree that they are too repetitively precise to be taken as live without debate, for sure.

But looping was a rarity in 82. Tape loops DID exist in R&B/Rap at that time, but again, rare, and difficult to sync to machines. Steve Ett is an engineer that should be praised to the ends of earth for his tape looping techniques in early rap.

This is an extremely good question that I don't want to write off the way I ignorantly got written off in the debate behind the production of Rapper's Delight (opening another can of worms on this thread, I maintain that's a combination of live instruments and tape loops, despite past ilm threads).

as expected, x-post

sequencers have a distinct feel. This isn't made up.

It's not made up but I believe it's overstated. Yes, you can measure the difference between how accurately a TR-808 and a Linn or whatever spits out 16th notes but it doesn't interest me and I don't believe it's as significant as you think in what you perceive in the end. There's too much second guessing and tricks of the mind in those kinds of debates.

I still insist that you are so fixated on what you consider to be the importance of these things that you are blinding yourself to all kinds of other factors - like how a sound is eq-ed, mixed, effected and so on, and what's going on over the top of it. For example, as I mentioned with regard to the Evelyn King record, the live hihats, cymbals and claps skew one's perception of the kick and snare.

For what it's worth, the drums on 'Beat Box' actually feel a tiny bit untight to me. It sounds quantized but a little bit floppy somehow. The hihat doesn't sound quite in time. I don't know if the Fairlight sequencer, which is what it's said by Horn to be, has a good reputation for timing stability compared to drum machines of the day.

like i mentioned above, another thing that makes me think the hats are some drum machine genius is the similarity to later (definitely sequenced) prince tracks, like the drum breaks on "play in the sunshine" and "dance on" (i think that's the one i mean, on lovesexy).

okay, maybe "dance on" isn't sequenced, that's harder to tell because the sounds are so live.

?uestlove weighs in on 777-9311 being sequenced: http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=1694985&mesg_id=1694985&page=2#1695120

"all that was programed"
In response to Reply # 0
Sat May-17-08 02:02 PM by qoolquest

cept the snare---which was done "lady cab driver" style by hands (this is morris' recollection as told to me the night of the grammies the night before dil passed)

you can easily tell this in 3 distinctive spots.

at 5:13 there is a drum roll (listening to this now...im amazed at how low the snare is mixed)

6:11 there is another roll of the snare on the turnaround in the bridge

and at 7:48 prince stops playing the snare altogether.

when i was 11 (when this came out) THIS was the song that made prince my OG dilla.

and thinking that human hands did this altogether....i spent the entire year getting this down (even taped my china cymbal to sound like a clap)---

then a year later....i was told it was programmed.)

i was mad!

but i still mastered it.

(the same rule applies to "something in the water does not compute" on 1999.

my arms couldn't have gotten stronger if i had discovered my uncles hidden del rio stash at my grandma's house

i'm not sure i agree with him about the snare being live (sounds more like sequenced fills to me) though, but it's plausible

The hihats on the Morris Day & the Time record are not live, to my ears. Programmed, with clever interplay of closed and open hihat to convey emphasis and crescendos, and a lot of 32nd quantize.

I still insist that you are so fixated on what you consider to be the importance of these things that you are blinding yourself to all kinds of other factors - like how a sound is eq-ed, mixed, effected and so on, and what's going on over the top of it. For example, as I mentioned with regard to the Evelyn King record, the live hihats, cymbals and claps skew one's perception of the kick and snare.

I failed to say how much I agree with you on this point. I never write this stuff off in its entirity, by now means. But no, the feel of a sequencer is not some thing I alone fixate on. It is a large part of the equation to the initial (and many subsequent) question(s). I think a more effective card to play against me is the "swing" effect that can be set to confuse things further. But when it's left untouched, it remains obvious in songs where these drums are isolated (Beat Box, King Kut, Sucker MCs, etc)

like i mentioned above, another thing that makes me think the hats are some drum machine genius is the similarity to later (definitely sequenced) prince tracks, like the drum breaks on "play in the sunshine" and "dance on" (i think that's the one i mean, on lovesexy).

These came out in 1987 and 1988 respectively. Looping technology had come a long way since the 1982 songs in question. I imagine Prince remained on the cutting edge of the "arms race" at that time. His wanting to effectively recreate that sound using what was available at that time makes sense to me.

xxxx-posts

So dubmill, do you suggest those hi-hats are Linn cymbal sounds?

They sound like it to me. The giveaway, apart from the regular, quantized feel of the timing, is the dull sound (lacking in top end).

thanks, that's really what i wanted to know

Beat Box by Art of Noise

Yes, that's right. And it sounds nothing like a DMX actually, well certainly the snare doesn't.

― dubmill, Tuesday, November 18, 2008 9:54 AM (2 days ago) Bookmark

Do you still believe this sounds nothing like a DMX snare?

I have just listened to and played around with my sound file of the DMX snare. After compressing it, adding a reverb, then gating it, it began to sound rather similar, I must say. I am still not entirely convinced. It's as if there's a harsh, metallic quality to the sound on the record which still wasn't quite there on the sound I have, although it was 10 times less 'woody' and mellow than the untreated sound (ie before I messed with it). But I might have to revise my opinion. One other possibility is that they could have mixed two snares together.

The other thing that's swaying me towards your line of thinking is I think the kick does sound DMX-ish (notice I referred only to the snare in my original comment).

But I still stand by my claim that there is nothing in the programming which gives away that it was *sequenced* on a DMX. If anything it sounds a bit 'computerish' (slightly floppy timing).

ha, the first thing i did when i got home today was work out 777-9311 on drums.

Now tell me this is NOT a DMX drum machine being used in this song.

just listen to the transistion between 1:34 and 1:37 and tell me that that is not a DMX cymbal being used.

...the debate behind the production of Rapper's Delight...

― be much inadequate one! (PappaWheelie V), Thursday, November 20, 2008 3:27 PM Bookmark

link?

Every song ever is a DMX, especially Love Come Down, but especially 777-9311.

x-post

Rev, I don't know, that short lived Rapper's Delight debate was another deviated thread from like 3+ years back.

Although Rev, you can find some thoughts much later at the OSHH board, where Jayquan, myself, and a few others deconstruct it:

http://oldschoolhiphop.forumco.com/topic~TOPIC_ID~16327.asp

This indeed may prove that kashif used the DMX in this album

That's Evelyn Champagne King "Betcha She Don't love you"

A longer version of "Betcha She don't love you"

It has the drum solo in the beginning.

I dug this thread up tonight after by chance listening to 1983 Midnight Star and noticing a softer touch DMX being used...which made me think of this thread and my over-the-top argument.

I'd bet money Startrekman that you are right in taking on my sidebar argument to prove Love Come Down et al uses a buried DMX, although I think our (all posters) collective derailing drew attention away from your initial point:

People keep saying it was the linn LM-1 but i know for a fact it was an Oberheim DMX drum machine.

This statement is as over-the-top as anything I've said about the non-use of the DMX before Davy D's use (which is Rap-centric, and still debatable within that context).

Although I stand by the idea that drum machines' sequencers have a feel that's as important as the drum sounds, dubmill made the best point on this, which is, often in early 80s (non-rap), they're buried, therefore difficult to feel. Kashif and company are the prime candidates for this, thus, heated debate.

So after all that, I'm listening closer to these songs, and wondering what's your verdict on 777-9311?

I still say Linn.

but i know for a fact it was an Oberheim DMX drum machine

What a ridiculous video. What is the point of learning, parrot fashion, how to play on a drum kit a beat that was made decades ago on a drum machine? And as for how his finished version sounds, firstly the hihat work sounds like crap; secondly the original beat on the record relies on the hand claps holding the other syncopated elements together, so, without that, his finished version sounds like an ugly mess.

welcome to the world of Roland Vdrums

I have listened to this song somewhere in the neighborhood of a dozen times today and it isn't enough.

There are two things wrong with that video

First: He said "777-3911" came out in the MID to LATE 1980s, MID TO LATE. If he is going to quote a song, learn when it came out. The song came out in 1981. That is the VERRRRY EARLY 1980s

Second: Like many people, he refers to the LM-1 as the LINN-DRUM. Do i have to say again, the LINNDRUM did not get released until 1982. The LINNDRUM was NOT used to make that song. The LM-1 possibly was but i personally still says it was a DMX but that was for another discussion.

Never change, The Startrekman

nice playing

interesting idea to program a beat like that

23:30, more or less

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOapYnlQMNQ

Insane skills Jordan!

ty!

Prince performing "777-9311" with The Time in Paris back in 2011. @BartFunk pic.twitter.com/WnoCa45cvx

— Bass Magazine (@BassMagOnline) August 18, 2022

Prince performing 777-9311 with Prince

(cool though, I love that he was playing bass live)

Yeah, I noticed the lack of Time.

I saw him play "Kiss" once and for some reason he played lead slap bass instead of guitar.