Steven Spielberg - classic or dud

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yeah Traffic had its low points ("she's sunk so low, she's fucking a BLACK MAN! OH THE HORROR!" + the heavily telegraphed witness killing, Cheadle's final grandstanding scene, etc.) but there was a LOT about it that was admirable and absorbing. Del Toro - come on, he was great. Pretty deft interweaving of multiple storylines, great use of different filmstocks and color schemes. Its sentiment is sorta Spielbergian in its heavy-handed moralizing, but considering no mainstream US movie had ever really tackled this subject you gotta hand it to Soderbergh for holding it together as well as he did.

(tho my favorite movie of his is THE LIMEY! Terence Stamp! blithely evil Peter Fonda! Yes!)

Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 28 July 2005 21:41 (eighteen years ago) link

I think there are probably a few mainstream US movies about drug traffiking, but the ones that are popping into my mind aren't all stone-faced about it. Brian De Palma has a couple.

I give you The Limey, though.

Eric H. (Eric H.), Thursday, 28 July 2005 21:44 (eighteen years ago) link

are you referring to the French Connection? gimme a break. the drug trafficking in that is just a backdrop for Hackman's tough-cop, uh, hackery. its very peripheral. it could just as well have been about diamond smuggling or something.

Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 28 July 2005 21:49 (eighteen years ago) link

the Limey had the 'best' tasteless misogynist joke ever!

latebloomer: You may order a puppet similar to this one (latebloomer), Thursday, 28 July 2005 21:55 (eighteen years ago) link

The original version of Traffik was so much better than Soderberg's crap remake it isn't even funny.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 28 July 2005 21:56 (eighteen years ago) link

I don't particularly care about the "perps" - I'm more interested in watching the cops themselves operate. The show is an invaluable window into the psychology of cops and the way they interact with people - always be assertive and/or condescending, don't let TV crews film actual take-down of suspects (somehow the TV cameras always seem to arrive AFTER the dude is already cuffed and on the ground), trust no one who isn't a cop, etc. After seeing this show so much there is definitely an easily identifiable "cop talk" mode of speaking, a way of being both pedantic and seemingly sympathetic at the same time. Its like the voice of a particularly exhausted baby-sitter who's only respite is in being blithely sadistic to the children.

Know the enemy, people.

Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:07 (eighteen years ago) link

Black man named Spike Lee makes Malcolm X = high-school filmstrip

I agree with this, Malcolm X is one of my least favorite Spike Lee joints (though I have it in my Netflix, just to make sure that I'm right).

Anyway, I agree with the statements about Schindler's moral ambiguity (which is a matter of fucking historical record, why white wash the dude when his own actions quite frankly white washed his moral ambiguity anyway), also the whole Neeson speech at the end where he's quivering on the floor like I don't even know what, carrying on about how each item represents a person he could save...it's so....argh. I don't even know what it is, it's so high school play. This is a fault of Neeson was well as the director, cos Neeson is awful, absolutely atrocrious in the scene...and the girl in the red dress...and the really specific bookend about what the holocaust was about, which I remember even when I was a kid seriously alienating my mother whose non-jewish relatives were persecuted...Spielberg's whole agenda with that movie...the unnecessary nakedd women everywhere...the weirdly unambigious character played by Ralph Fiennes...Ugh. The movie has it's good qualities and has its heart in such the right place but goes so, so wrong.

I like movies like Downfall better, where everythying is not so...excuse the pun here...black and white.

Re: Soderberg, Alex is totally, totally, so unambiguously and so horrifyingly and so mind-shatteringly OTM about Traffic. That movie was not very good and the only things saving it was Benecio Del Toro, but that's Benecio for you, he even saved crappy boring Bond films for me. I like Soderberg's pop epics better, someone else touched upon his POP sensibility and how it is edgier, less hamfisted and LOOK AT ME than Spielberg's...Erin Brokovich and Ocean's Eleven are both fantastic movies, despite all odds (ie Julia Roberts and Andy Garcia). They are both fantastic pieces of film-making, inherently entertaining and watchable and the messages (esp. EB) are not so I AM GOING TO HAMMER THIS INTO YOUR HEAD SO HARD YOU WILL NOT KNOW WHERE YOUR ASS IS AND YOUR HEAD IS ANYMORE as Spielberg tends to be. Soderberg's more "serious" movies...well...Solaris was shit, dude. Let's hope he remakes Posiedon Adventure real soon.

Allyzay knows a little German (allyzay), Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:08 (eighteen years ago) link

haha - how did my COPS thread ost get over here! sorry.

Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:09 (eighteen years ago) link

Though I will say I have a big bias against Liam Neeson cos of that time he called me real drunk to bitch about his co-op bill being off by $20. He used to always go to this restaurant I used to frequent all the time, Santa Fe, and he was always drooling drunk, like a moron. His wife was so hot though.

xpost Why apologize, it was a great post, better than expected, and I was highly entertained and quite frankly, I salute you, sir, for that post.

Allyzay knows a little German (allyzay), Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:11 (eighteen years ago) link

Spike Lee has definitely made some bad films (the last one, Girl 6, the Malcolm X one definitely trends towards the preachy although I wouldn't say it is bad) but even his most over-ambitious failed experiments are more fun to watch than say AI or Saving Ryan's Private.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:16 (eighteen years ago) link

To all the Benicio Del Toro love (re Traffic, a movie I also dislike), I have to dissent. He was ok, but I always scratched my head at why HE got all the attention and the awards. Don Cheadle and Luis Guzman, superb in so many Soderbergh films (Guzman was particularly fine as Terence Stamp's sidekick in The Limey), were much more memorable and were ignored.

Del Toro only started to earn the plaudits he earned for Traffic in 21 Grams. Before then he was coasting on mannerism and sheer weirdness.

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:18 (eighteen years ago) link

I dunno, Spike vs. Spielberg is a tough call for me, Lee's such a sloppy filmmaker. He's almost the antithesis of Spielberg - the pedantry without the style. He really only has one great, perfect film and that's "Do the Right Thing". There's good stuff scattered in his other movies (I haven't seen 25th Hour) but by and large its one trainwreck after another... Girl 6, Get on the Bus, Bamboozled, Summer of Sam, etc. Has there ever been a Spike Lee movie that *doesn't* end with someone getting murdered...?

x-post

Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:20 (eighteen years ago) link

Taking Sides: Steven Spielberg vs Ron Howard.

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:21 (eighteen years ago) link

Just so we're clear that there's a baseline here.

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:23 (eighteen years ago) link

Del Toro has always been a very good physical presence and his charisma is because of his weird mannerisms, he's like Nicolas Cage honed to a zen-like haiku of hand shapes of head tilts

gear (gear), Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:23 (eighteen years ago) link

That's the thing I see with Spike Lee...even with his failed efforts (I TOTALLY DISAGREE WITH YOU WITH THE LAST ONE UNLESS THE LAST ONE IS NOT "THE 25TH HOUR" AND I FELL ASLEEP FOR SEVERAL YEARS???), I think there is something a lot more fun to watch...something a lot more provocative to think about, than a lot of top directors, Spielberg included.

I think that's part of the thing, right? I feel like Spielberg, "recently" meaning since 1990, wants us to THINK about his movies. THINK SO HARD yr brain explodes, right? But he doesn't give us that much more than base questions we might have already had. What questions does AI raise that you might have already had? What questions does it explore in a way that someone might unthink their other way of thinking? That's something I don't like. The feeling that I SHOULD be thinking, reconsidering, after watching Schindler's List, Saving Private Ryan, AI...except he doesn't give you anything besides a pretty middle-America-stereotype way of thinking about it. He doesn't actually explore the questions he raises, he doesn't give you anything different from what the Hollywood cliche says he should...

I won't tell you that Spielberg is a "bad" director...it's just that he's not a "good" director in my estimation of good either. I'd rather watch Lee or Scorcese's worst films than Spielberg's...because even Girl 6 or..well, wait, I won't defend recent Scorcese but even the Aviator gave me a bit to think about.

xpost Lee IS very sloppy...but in a way I like that about him. It's like there is TOO MUCH going on in his head to contain in one movie, you are left asking a question. I don't feel this sentiment about Do The Right Thing, Bamboozled, or 25th Hour. They are not sloppy movies, though you are left thinking. A lot. Summer of Sam and Girl 6 are really well meaining train wrecks...

Re: Del Toro, I agree that Cheadle deserves more love than he gets, but Del Toro is very good. Del Toro also looks like the swarthy Brad Pitt. Has anyone else noticed this? They're dopplegangers, cross-ethnicity. THink about it.

Allyzay knows a little German (allyzay), Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:24 (eighteen years ago) link

I felt like just about the only one who thought Erin Brockovich was a lot more confident and breezy and enjoyable than Traffic. It must've been his Hawks film.
-- Eric H. (ephende...), July 28th, 2005.

So OTM. My friends still think I'm fuckin' crazy. Popist entertainment vs Rockist Grand Statement.

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:25 (eighteen years ago) link

The last one I meant was She Hate Me.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:25 (eighteen years ago) link

Andrew. If you ever pose a question that diabolical in my physical presence, I will punch you in the genitals.

Allyzay knows a little German (allyzay), Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:26 (eighteen years ago) link

I've seen the similarity, too! Way of the Gun would have been infinitely better if Pitt took the Philippe role and the two characters were brothers.

okay it still would have sucked...

gear (gear), Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:26 (eighteen years ago) link

I admire Spike Lee's nerve. His most underrate film: Clockers.

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:26 (eighteen years ago) link

Clockers is a very good film! Mekhi Phifer couldn't quite hold his own with the rest of the cast, though.

gear (gear), Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:28 (eighteen years ago) link

I think Clockers, Summer of Sam, 25th Hour and Get on the Bus (and the doc about the girls in Birmingham is excellent) all have really interesting elements. They are all seriously flawed in some way though, I won't deny that.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:28 (eighteen years ago) link

How can you compare Lee with Spielberg? Lee is essentially a director of agitprop, with a few detours into character studies. Spielberg is an entertainer with delusions of grandeur.

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:29 (eighteen years ago) link

Beats me. Someone did it above.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:29 (eighteen years ago) link

The 25th Hour, with all its longeurs and absurdities, was fantastic. It was one of the more convincingly paranoid films I've seen in recent years.

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:29 (eighteen years ago) link

The main reason I'm contributing is cuz I don't give a shit about Spielberg and I really enjoy Lee.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:30 (eighteen years ago) link

I kind of like Traffic. I find it impossible to take even mildly seriously, so it's just like Ocean's Eleven w/ guns and sweaty crackhead teenagers. Ooooh lookit Catherine Zeta Jones go from society wife to dealer! Check out the bleach bypass effect in the Mexico footage!

milozauckerman (miloaukerman), Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:31 (eighteen years ago) link

25th Hour is seriously flawed, but it's still a great film. That is in part a testiment to the powers of the magnificient actors employed in it as well as a testiment to Spike Lee. It is a very powerful film to watch, moreso depending on your involvement in certain elements in NYC life. But it is significantly flawed, least of which being that Rosario Dawson couldn't pass for a Catholic schoolgirl teenager if her life depended on it. But yeah, it is a significant portrayal of paranoia and minor neurosises as I've seen on film, ever.

Allyzay knows a little German (allyzay), Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:32 (eighteen years ago) link

well goddammit when is he going to make that afrocentric-sci-fi film he's always been threatening to do? I would be SO into that. there's a script that writes itself.

Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:32 (eighteen years ago) link

I want Delany to script that. It would be awesome.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:34 (eighteen years ago) link

Xpost yes I agree with you that Traffic is enjoyable from that viewpoint but doesn't hold a candle to what it's meant to do..I think Soderberg is more of a POP filmmaker than he wants to admit..>I was serious about him doing a remake of the Poisiedon (sp who gives a shit I've had several drinks) Adventure.

re: 25th Hour I will fully admit that I'd watch Ed Norton read a phone book but it doesn't really diminish the fact that it'd a good movie. So is Bamboozled, even thoubgh it is a little bit of a mess. Bamboozled haunted me for a long time. The ending of that movie, whether stock "someone get killed tonight" Lee or not, is seriously disturbed and you'd have to have a heart of stone not to think about Savion Glover and people like him for a long, long time afterwards. Which is what I think is the power of Lee vs. Spielberg...they don't belong in the same category. Even if the biggest Lee messes I've seen , I've THOUGHT aobut them for ages and ages. I still think about Bamboozled...a deeply flawed movie (Mainly in Damon Wayans's character) but good nonetheless...sometimes. It still haunts me, the end of that film. I can't think of a Spielberg film that does that to me, even his best. Sometimes I think about how Raiders of the Lost ArK would be better with me instead of Karen Allen...but not the same thing, is it?

Allyzay knows a little German (allyzay), Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:37 (eighteen years ago) link

Bamboozled might actually be my favorite Lee film, despite its deep flaws and its obvious subservience to the 25th Hour (which is probably his best film, in competition with the good 'ol criterion choice, Do The Right Thing)

Allyzay knows a little German (allyzay), Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:39 (eighteen years ago) link

I couldn't make it all the way to the end of Bamboozled. I know there's supposed to be some "amazing" montage of little black sambos or whatever. I just got a little lost wrt to the characters and who was doing what and it just seemed so haphazard and formless I think I just turned it off and did the dishes instead...

Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:40 (eighteen years ago) link

Alex, you're a dreamer. Imagine a Spike Lee "Dhalgren"? Be so, so, so fucking k-rad.

Remy (x Jeremy), Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:40 (eighteen years ago) link

Karen Allen is great in Raiders!! so much better than Mrs. Spielberg in the second. Every time I see Temple of Doom I wish someone would shoot her.

Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:41 (eighteen years ago) link

Dude, Shakey, you and me both. Kate Capshaw is os bad in Doom...I mean that movie is seriously flawed but she's the biggest flaw. I mean why would Indie have time for her, after Karen Allen? She might not be as conventionally attractive but...damn.

Allyzay knows a little German (allyzay), Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:43 (eighteen years ago) link

I gotta say, as enticing an idea as it is, a Delany + Spike Lee collab would probably be rather hamstrung by the latter's weirdly conservative (almost reactionary) sexual politics.

Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:45 (eighteen years ago) link

I LOVE Kate Capshaw! A most convincing ditz. She reminded me of Carole Lombard in My Man Godfrey.

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:45 (eighteen years ago) link

Alfred Soto, you are insane.

Allyzay knows a little German (allyzay), Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:46 (eighteen years ago) link

she doesn't do anything particularly ditzy in Temple. all she does is WHINE. "Indeeeee, I'm going to crryyyyyyyy" arrrrgh sacrifice the bitch to Kali already!

Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:47 (eighteen years ago) link

Uh, technically, Temple of Doom is a prequel to Raiders. So the Capshaw love affair came before the Allen one.

I wish I didn't know this.

Deric W. Haircare (Deric W. Haircare), Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:48 (eighteen years ago) link

Dude, I know that by any standard she deserves immolation, but she played the hell out of a puerile stereotype.

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:49 (eighteen years ago) link

True, Shakey Mo. (Like 6 xpost). And I say that after having seen She Hate Me (subtitle: "Black Gigli").

Remy (x Jeremy), Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:50 (eighteen years ago) link

yes, Indy clearly got exhausted with her. I was more annoyed that he went from Karen Allen to the Nazi.

gear (gear), Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:50 (eighteen years ago) link

i alreayd know that Doom is a prequel buut STILL wtf. find someone more firey. EWven Michelle Pfieffer would be preferable and she's like the opposite fo fire. That means she is WATER. Kate Capshaw=mud, therefore.

xpost Karen Allen to the Nazi iks like a whole different level of disappointment.

Allyzay knows a little German (allyzay), Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:51 (eighteen years ago) link

"Uh, technically, Temple of Doom is a prequel to Raiders. So the Capshaw love affair came before the Allen one."

No. In Raiders its clearly established that Allen and Indy had met before - long before - back when Indy was still working with her professor father (which would imply they met back when Indy was a student or at least not an academic authority in his own right, ie, prior to Temple of Doom).

Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:51 (eighteen years ago) link

(altho once again the Indy tactic of making the films out of sequence raises a whole host of continuity problems, not just that one. for example, in Raiders Indy says he doesn't believe in magic or religious "mumbo jumbo" - yet in Temple of Doom he witnesses firsthand several things which are CLEARLY magic/mystical mumbo jumbo, ie, the magic of those dumb stones...)

Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:54 (eighteen years ago) link

Right, but was there romance between Indy & Allen pre-Raiders?

Deric W. Haircare (Deric W. Haircare), Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:55 (eighteen years ago) link

yeah, Shakey's right. I guess even Indy has to go through that Woody Allen period and favoring M. Hemingway over L. Lasser.

Eric H. (Eric H.), Thursday, 28 July 2005 22:55 (eighteen years ago) link


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