Linn LM-1 or DMX drum machine in 777-9311 by Morris Day and the Time

more google cachery

http://www.whitwell.ndo.co.uk/musicthing/html/prince.htm

The thing about When Doves Cry is he admittedly wanted to copy Run-DMC...but DMC was using a DMX, and Prince was not.

I always find it odd that Kiss uses a Linndrum and became a hit in 1986, ling after the machine had nearly evaporated everywhere else!

ling-ling

haha i thought the same thing

That thing is RIGID

What exactly do you mean by this? Assuming a pattern is quantized to 16ths how significantly different would it sound if it was programmed into a DMX vs the Fairlight. I'm not talking about the sounds but the timing. I accept there might be some difference but I suspect this is overstated, although I'm willing to be convinced otherwise.

Anything by the producer Kashif (Who produced songs for Evelyn Champagne King that would include "Love Come Down and Betcha She Don't love you.)

Startrekman, if you're seriously arguing that Love Come Down is using a DMX, your ears are eternally fucked.

Dude, i don't know what quality of stereo you are using but Love Come Down does in deed use a DMX. Kashif started using it in "I'm in love" By Evelyn Chamgagne King ( Only it was used as a guide by a drummer and not as the main backing drum) Kashif was using the DMX in his own self titled album as well. As i said the LM-1 was prohibitely expensive and the DMX provided an alternative.

Candy Man is a Linndrum.

Rick James Cold Blooded (1983) is ALL 808.

Where are you getting this stuff?

Mistake on cold blooded

However, Mary Jane Giels album with candyman used exclusevly DMX. It was released in 1982 at the same time the linnDrum was being release so ain't no way in hell it could have used a LinnDrum

Two Rick James songs that used the DMX...

Seventeen
Ghetto Life

some more if i can think of 'em

You've proved me wrong enough to my liking, so I'll concede.

(although, to clarify my earlier posts, I, much like other rap artists of the period, use the term Linndrum to mean the LM-1, the Linndrum proper, and Linn 9000, as alluded to in my initial post)

Ok, Trevor Horn via Sound On Sound:

"It was an amazing time because it was all exploding. Just as the McLaren thing came to an end, Page R arrived on the Fairight. And that was gobsmacking because that was the first time you heard those sort of sounds sequenced. And that's where the Art Of Noise came from. We were in a very lucky position because when Page R arrived I was doing Yes. So I had Alan White's drums and it was Alan White's drums that became [Art Of Noise's debut single] 'Beat Box'.

"One of the big things at the end of the Yes album [1983's 90125] was that this gizmo came along called the Conductor. It was a device that allowed you to connect a Linn drum machine to Page R. And that might seem like a minor detail now but, boy, that was breathtaking for us back then, because it meant you could lock a Linn drum machine to Page R! And all of the early Art Of Noise stuff was locking things to Page R. The very first thing was 'Beat Box' and it came from JJ Jeczalik messing around with Alan White's drums while I was working on 90125. I brought the Fairlight into 90125 for all that stuff on 'Owner Of A Lonely Heart'. We did use the Synclavier also at the time, but all of that 'da, ba ba ba' and all that stuff — that was the Fairlight. So JJ was screwing around in the back room and I remember him playing me that 'Beat Box' drum loop and I said 'Jees, that's fantastic, they'll love that in New York.'

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar05/articles/trevorhorn.htm

Some fine science being dropped here.

4-Sight had to hire DXJ (Maggotron) solely to borrow his 808 because when they were running out of a Mall record store's backroom, they only thing they owned was a Linndrum, to which by late 1984, they said "was only good for doing demos on at that point because it was cheap".

IF the only thing that the LinnDrum was good for was demos, why was it VERY popular among TOP producers and MAJOR stars?? The LinnDrum was used by for example Sting, Howard Jones and many others?

The thing is, it (the Linndrum) became TOO popular. For a while it was THE machine to use, but I remember at the time getting sick of the sounds. You get sick of anything if it's the only thing you hear all the time. I remember hearing that Linn snare and kick all the time, and the snare, in particular, has a dull, thwacking, cardboardy quality that I started to fixate on and really dislike. In 1984 I used the Movement Drum Computer, and just for that reason - to have a DIFFERENT sound. We didn't want to use the Linn again and our engineer said, oh there's this new machine that's come out and not many people are using it, so we decided to use that. BUT, we wanted to use some percussion sounds off the TR-808 (again we'd demo-ed the song - 'Hello Wintertime' - with the 808) and we had nightmares trying to sync the two machines up. I can't remember how we did it in the end but we spent the best part of a day trying to get them playing in sync (or maybe what we tried in the end was re-programming the 808 patterns on the Movement and getting it to trigger the 808 sounds, via whatever cv/gate (pre-MIDI) interface there was). I know we spent all day on it and we were on a limited budget so it was a nightmare.

Later that year a few other machines started to be released (EMU Drumulator, Sequential Drumtraks, Yamaha RX11 etc.), then a few years down the line it became routine to sample any sound you wanted which was a great step forward, at least in a way. I say 'in a way' because sometimes it's better to have limited choice and just use what there is rather than being tyrannized by the sense of limitless choice all the time.

― Lasers of the New School (PappaWheelie V)

Suggested alteration for future Startrekman threads: Lasers Phasers of the New School

you can set your phaser on Stun, Kill, Destroy, Vaporise and Tear-That-Muthafucka-Up.

<3 gear nerdery

(not being snarky, btw)

Dubmill, are you talking about the LinnDrum (the LM-2) or the LM-1?

tyrannized by the sense of limitless choice all the time.

^^^

are you talking about the LinnDrum (the LM-2) or the LM-1?

I'm talking about both, really. The LinnDrum was manufactured in much larger numbers, was a lot cheaper, and consequently much more widely used, but the sounds were the same as far as I'm aware (although I note that the sampling rate was slightly higher on the LinnDrum, theoretically giving the sounds a bit more top end). Certainly THAT snare is common to both. It's the ubiquity of it that got on one's nerves. For a while it was almost like EVERY record had the same drum sounds on it.

I like the Linn snare sound now because it has a period charm and is also a pleasing antidote to both the tinny, high pitched, ringing 'rock kit' snares, and the dirty-sounding, sampled (or sample style) hip hop snares (both of which types have been done to death over the last ten years or so).

i <3 this thread too

IF the only thing that the LinnDrum was good for was demos, why was it VERY popular among TOP producers and MAJOR stars?? The LinnDrum was used by for example Sting, Howard Jones and many others?

TIMELINE

In 1979/1980, the Linn (LM-1 in this case, but whatever, the Linn) was THE hot new gear.

By 1984, it was passe, in part due to the popularity of the 808, and shortly after, the DMX.

This has always been my point on that issue.

JayQuan : I always felt that Run Dmc was able to take off based on the fact that Furious 5 was in a drought ; and because they rapped over stripped down beats ; like what you did in the parks and clubs . Do you agree ?

Melle Mel : Yes...while we were caught up in all that legal stuff a lot of groups moved in . It was the right time for them...they came right in time for Mtv and that crowd....we missed all that .Sugarhill wasn't into doing videos . They were a company from the 60s , and they were still operating like Motown....They were still using the old Linn drum and the Sugarhill band while other labels had Scratching and drum machines in their songs . After our split neither faction was the same . Even after we got back together it wasn't the same.

If I truly do concede on anything, it's that the DMX became used in the US before 1984/1985 outside of Davy DMX (the kinda obscure Just Four's "Games of Life" springs to mind), but became highly visible after Davy's use on Run-DMC's singles in 1983 (so I'm not saying I'm sitting around listening to Rick James's catalog trying to prove he didn't use it, but rather, he was in the margins if so):

http://www.discogs.com/release/257372
http://www.discogs.com/release/85048

Davy is uncredited on the labels, but Larry Smith admits it was Davy in a phone interview floating around.

But I stand by the fact that Love Come Down and 777-9311 are not the DMX.

We're being silly by not offering concrete examples of these sounds/timings.

The big DMX drums and tight sequencer:

Run Dmc - Sucker mc's (US, 1983)

Davy DMX - One for the Treble (US, 1984)

Kurtis Blow - AJ Scratch (US, 1984)

Word of Mouth - King Kut (US, 1985)

The System - Don't Disturb This Groove (US, 1987)

And yeah, Art of Noise's Beat Box remains evident (UK, 1983):

(why would they call the song BEATBOX if it was all keyboard driven???)

Trevor Horn's words above I'm sure are true in nearly all other instances, as shown in Moments in Love (because clearly that is not the DMX):

And there ain't NO WAY this is the DMX:
Evelyn "Champagne" KIng - Love come down (US, 1982)

(although I would wonder if it's similar to 777-9311, with live drums overdubbed to the machine)

The Linn Drum's (as Dubmill effectively said) cardboard sounds and less rigid sequencer:
[sadly, no prince videos are on youtube that I can find, but 1980's Dirty Mind is the origin]

Grandmaster Flash & The Furious Five - The Message (US, 1982)

FAB 5 FREDDY - CHANGE THE BEAT (US, 1982)

Grandmaster Flash - Scorpio (US, 1983)

I realize my know-it-all attitude on this issue makes me a target, and yeah, shoot all day long, but the intial quesiton and a handful of subsequent points are just contrarian at best. These sounds are obvious. The timeline is not airtight, but scales aren't generally tipped in one sitting...so the more popular things become, the less popular other things become with time.

In American Black music:

The Linndrum (LM-1, whatever) became popular after Prince's Dirty Mind hit. Really true for drum machines in general within Black music...

The 808 became popular after Planet Rock hit in mid-82, sparking drum machines in Rap.

The DMX gained fame AFTER Davy's use on Run-DMC, killing the Linn's popularity, and threatening the 808's popularity.

1984/1985 released/popularized the 909, creating a varied playing field.

This is all I've ever said here.

Oh hell, 3 limit

I'll select wisely:

DMX:
Word of Mouth f. DJ Cheese- King Kut (1985, US)

Linndrum:

Grandmaster Flash & The Furious Five - The Message

Grandmaster Flash - Scorpio

The sounds and timing between these two machines are incredibly different.

I really thought this needed highlighting too, as it's late for the DMX (1987) and in the R&B context, but damn it wreaks of the DMX sequencer:

The System - Don't Disturb This Groove

We're sorry, this video is no longer available

The world is against me...

DMX drums if I ever heard them. DMX sequencer if I ever heard it:

Art of Noise - Beat Box

And there ain't NO WAY this is the DMX:
Evelyn "Champagne" KIng - Love come down (US, 1982)

I don't know if there's any information available documenting how that record was produced as opposed to people just saying 'yes it is', 'no it isn't'. For what it's worth it sounds like the DMX kick to me. The snare is harder to evaluate because it is covered by loud handclaps all the time. The claps sound like real handclaps (properly recorded - multitracked over and over, gated/reverbed), similarly the hihats and cymbals. Those elements do a good job of making it sound almost like a live drum track but I have a hunch it's a very repetitive kick and snare loop (DMX). It could even be just the DMX kick, with the drummer laying everything else over the top (minus the kick). It's interesting there's not a single deviation from the 2 & 4 on the snare throughout the record. That suggests a drum machine for the snare because any drummer would always slip in at least one roll, however minimal.

why would they call the song BEATBOX if it was all keyboard driven???

Because of the programmed beat that is the main feature of the record?

DMX sequencer if I ever heard it

It just sounds like a quantized drum pattern with lots of reverb. I don't hear anything distinctive about the way it's programmed (ie you could programme the exact same pattern into a Linn if you felt like it .. the sounds would be different but the little skips on the kick drum could be programmed exactly the same way - 16th quantize).

The sounds and timing between these two machines are incredibly different.

I don't understand what your point is. The examples you have given are different kinds of beats with different production effects applied to them. The differing styles do not prove that there is some distinctive attribute of the input method or timing on each machine that affects what comes out the other end. Yes, the Linn sounds are intrinsically a bit softer, but The Message has a laid-back pseudo-funk feel to the beat, whereas the other examples have a more machine-like feel, which is then accentuated by the heavy reverb effects on the drums. But if you listen to something like Alexander O'Neal's 'If You Were Here Tonight', you can hear the DMX working on a more rounded, mellow soul tune, and it is programmed/engineered/produced accordingly.

Programmed loops still fall offbeat with most 80s machines. Again, the point of smpte/click tracks. The DMX needed that less than any other early 80s machines.

This is the problem with my argument. If you personally don't *feel* sequencers, there's no way to prove the feel of it, and the debate defers to drum sounds.

In the 80s hip-hop producing community, the only tech debates were drum sounds, the feel of a sequencer, the feel of a board, and the flexibility/understanding of an engineer. I learned about smpte et al from wanting to understand what makes the feel of a sequencer so unique.

One of the endless debates in that community is why is Planet Rock so tight, despite the loose cannon nature of the 808 sequencer. It finally got addressed by the guys who engineered it: smpte/click track tricks, laid by Burzootie in advance to make concessions for Robie's keyboard. Just goes to show how big of a topic this is in aging hip-hop guys' worlds.

Another nerd fest in hip-hop is listening to records from 1992 to decide if it's the SP1200 or MPC60II sequencer, since that was the year the community accepted the MPC widely. This is a holdover from when the SP1200 replaced the 808 in 1987 because the sound change then was SOOO drastic.

You either feel it, or you don't, and yeah, that's room for error when debating it, depending on how much time put in with it. I *might* be wrong on Beatbox, but every time I play it, it immediately screams DMX within the first 3 beats, the same way King Kut does. Exceptionally Rigid.

Trevor Horn wasn't above varying his technique for an isolated concept. I suspect that's the case here, but again, I realize this could be in error, and difficult to debate.

x-post

With Don't Disturb this Groove, the slower tempo of the song allows for more swingtime of live effects between each kick and snare, but when you isolate the kick and snare pattern in your ear, it's still air tight rigid.

We can debate forever...sequencers have a distinct feel. This isn't made up. There's technology out there to compensate for this.

so are the closed & open hi-hat sounds on the Linn really as dope as they sound on 777-9311? or is it more due to prince's production?

pappawheelie IV i heart u. i finally saw this thread and i knew you would be dropping serious nerd science! and you were! awesome and informative thread. A+ would click again.

wiki says the cymbals were played live

― nicky lo-fi, Tuesday, November 18, 2008 1:18 AM (2 days ago) Bookmark

I vote for this answer.

x-postr, thanks m@tt...not sure I was effective at anything but ruining my reputation though, despite.

the cymbals are not live. if they are it's an obvious loop, but even so the little ruffs and double-strokes definitely sound sequenced to me.

maybe he sampled some real closed & open cymbal sounds and loaded them into a sequencer...were people doing that in '82?

I do agree that they are too repetitively precise to be taken as live without debate, for sure.

But looping was a rarity in 82. Tape loops DID exist in R&B/Rap at that time, but again, rare, and difficult to sync to machines. Steve Ett is an engineer that should be praised to the ends of earth for his tape looping techniques in early rap.

This is an extremely good question that I don't want to write off the way I ignorantly got written off in the debate behind the production of Rapper's Delight (opening another can of worms on this thread, I maintain that's a combination of live instruments and tape loops, despite past ilm threads).

as expected, x-post

sequencers have a distinct feel. This isn't made up.

It's not made up but I believe it's overstated. Yes, you can measure the difference between how accurately a TR-808 and a Linn or whatever spits out 16th notes but it doesn't interest me and I don't believe it's as significant as you think in what you perceive in the end. There's too much second guessing and tricks of the mind in those kinds of debates.

I still insist that you are so fixated on what you consider to be the importance of these things that you are blinding yourself to all kinds of other factors - like how a sound is eq-ed, mixed, effected and so on, and what's going on over the top of it. For example, as I mentioned with regard to the Evelyn King record, the live hihats, cymbals and claps skew one's perception of the kick and snare.

For what it's worth, the drums on 'Beat Box' actually feel a tiny bit untight to me. It sounds quantized but a little bit floppy somehow. The hihat doesn't sound quite in time. I don't know if the Fairlight sequencer, which is what it's said by Horn to be, has a good reputation for timing stability compared to drum machines of the day.

like i mentioned above, another thing that makes me think the hats are some drum machine genius is the similarity to later (definitely sequenced) prince tracks, like the drum breaks on "play in the sunshine" and "dance on" (i think that's the one i mean, on lovesexy).

okay, maybe "dance on" isn't sequenced, that's harder to tell because the sounds are so live.

?uestlove weighs in on 777-9311 being sequenced: http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=1694985&mesg_id=1694985&page=2#1695120

"all that was programed"
In response to Reply # 0
Sat May-17-08 02:02 PM by qoolquest

cept the snare---which was done "lady cab driver" style by hands (this is morris' recollection as told to me the night of the grammies the night before dil passed)

you can easily tell this in 3 distinctive spots.

at 5:13 there is a drum roll (listening to this now...im amazed at how low the snare is mixed)

6:11 there is another roll of the snare on the turnaround in the bridge

and at 7:48 prince stops playing the snare altogether.

when i was 11 (when this came out) THIS was the song that made prince my OG dilla.

and thinking that human hands did this altogether....i spent the entire year getting this down (even taped my china cymbal to sound like a clap)---

then a year later....i was told it was programmed.)

i was mad!

but i still mastered it.

(the same rule applies to "something in the water does not compute" on 1999.

my arms couldn't have gotten stronger if i had discovered my uncles hidden del rio stash at my grandma's house

i'm not sure i agree with him about the snare being live (sounds more like sequenced fills to me) though, but it's plausible

The hihats on the Morris Day & the Time record are not live, to my ears. Programmed, with clever interplay of closed and open hihat to convey emphasis and crescendos, and a lot of 32nd quantize.

I still insist that you are so fixated on what you consider to be the importance of these things that you are blinding yourself to all kinds of other factors - like how a sound is eq-ed, mixed, effected and so on, and what's going on over the top of it. For example, as I mentioned with regard to the Evelyn King record, the live hihats, cymbals and claps skew one's perception of the kick and snare.

I failed to say how much I agree with you on this point. I never write this stuff off in its entirity, by now means. But no, the feel of a sequencer is not some thing I alone fixate on. It is a large part of the equation to the initial (and many subsequent) question(s). I think a more effective card to play against me is the "swing" effect that can be set to confuse things further. But when it's left untouched, it remains obvious in songs where these drums are isolated (Beat Box, King Kut, Sucker MCs, etc)

like i mentioned above, another thing that makes me think the hats are some drum machine genius is the similarity to later (definitely sequenced) prince tracks, like the drum breaks on "play in the sunshine" and "dance on" (i think that's the one i mean, on lovesexy).

These came out in 1987 and 1988 respectively. Looping technology had come a long way since the 1982 songs in question. I imagine Prince remained on the cutting edge of the "arms race" at that time. His wanting to effectively recreate that sound using what was available at that time makes sense to me.

xxxx-posts

So dubmill, do you suggest those hi-hats are Linn cymbal sounds?

They sound like it to me. The giveaway, apart from the regular, quantized feel of the timing, is the dull sound (lacking in top end).

thanks, that's really what i wanted to know

Beat Box by Art of Noise

Yes, that's right. And it sounds nothing like a DMX actually, well certainly the snare doesn't.

― dubmill, Tuesday, November 18, 2008 9:54 AM (2 days ago) Bookmark

Do you still believe this sounds nothing like a DMX snare?

I have just listened to and played around with my sound file of the DMX snare. After compressing it, adding a reverb, then gating it, it began to sound rather similar, I must say. I am still not entirely convinced. It's as if there's a harsh, metallic quality to the sound on the record which still wasn't quite there on the sound I have, although it was 10 times less 'woody' and mellow than the untreated sound (ie before I messed with it). But I might have to revise my opinion. One other possibility is that they could have mixed two snares together.

The other thing that's swaying me towards your line of thinking is I think the kick does sound DMX-ish (notice I referred only to the snare in my original comment).

But I still stand by my claim that there is nothing in the programming which gives away that it was *sequenced* on a DMX. If anything it sounds a bit 'computerish' (slightly floppy timing).

ha, the first thing i did when i got home today was work out 777-9311 on drums.

Now tell me this is NOT a DMX drum machine being used in this song.

just listen to the transistion between 1:34 and 1:37 and tell me that that is not a DMX cymbal being used.

More proof the Oberheim DMX was used well before 1983..

Harlem Nights Music Recreates some of the old-school hip-hop beats that used the DMX

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GflqqvEZ9Ag

You will hear in this recreation...SURPRISE! Grandmaster Flash "The Message"

this thread is peculiar.

Startrekman, the drums on 777-9311 are Linn LM1, not Oberheim DMX. When Marion 360 Systems took over manufacturing for Roger Linn (after the first 36 or so were built...by hand) they added, as an option, a cymbal.

You state in the first post "i know for a fact it was an Oberheim DMX drum machine." But in the last post you say:

"I listened to 777-9311 and I am slowly beginning to realize it may and i remphasize it MAY be a Linn LM-1."

then at the end you say

"I still say 777-9311 MAY be a DMX. Remphazie MAY be a DMX."

Well, which one is it?

Since this thread began, I have purchased a LM-2, aka LinnDrum, which has many of the same sounds (for instance, a better sample rate and new kickdrum) and very similar features to the LM-1 (not all sounds are tunable).

I say this bc on the LM-2, you can not only play the pads live (which Prince often did), but also quantize different sounds within the same pattern to different rates -- including no rate at all, which might explain why this cut *sounds* live.

the hi-hats are definitely quantized to 1/32. it's a testament to prince's skill as a musician that he managed to program such a complicated pattern (and different velocity levels!) on a real time sequencer. i've not used a linn drum, but i've tried on my dr-660 (which was designed by roger linn and features basically the same sequencer as the linn drum) to replicate this pattern but cannot come close. it's only slightly easier to attempt on a step sequencer!

i mean i guess he could've slowed the bpm right down when recording but still, hard

Naive Teen Idol,

I liked the Linn Drum too but it became dated very quickly since it was cheap and became popular real fast. Prince actually used it on Erotic City in place of the usual LM1 sounds. It's not always the equipment....It's sometimes the person using it. Simply put, Prince and his engineers can make any drum machine sound good.
The Linn Drum was sampled at 35K, the LM1 at 28K. The LM1 is below the Nyquist frequency, and the result is aliasing when you tune it up or down, resulting in that sizzle or ring that you hear on the handclaps or sidestick tuned real low. In my opinion, the LM1 was waaaaay better than the Linn Drum, just because you could tune any sound to any pitch and it would sound great. I can't say the same about the Linn Drum.

Rio,

I disagree with it being skill. All Linn machines have a repeat button...you set the quantize rate and it repeats at that rate. Harder with an LM1 than with my Linn 9000, but still do able.

With the 2nd snare hit of each measure, I believe he turned quantize off to achieve that off beat pattern. Actually sounds more like a mistake, but still very creative.

So i was looking on you tube how the hell he did that beat and found out something interesting with the linn lm-1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyFCy0DffZc

Yup -- LM-1 applies an envelope to a continuously running sample that varies as it plays. That means you get a different snapshot of the sample every time you trigger it. My LM-2 doesn't have that.

Roger Linn, hero:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Roger_Linn_%E2%80%9CDrum_Machines_Have_No_Soul%E2%80%9D.jpg

^_^

Roger Linn Shelved Products

Some good nerding out on this thread. Just to put it to rest, after Jam & Lewis talked about it a few years ago on Questlove's podcast and David Garibaldi confirmed it:

-It's definitely Linn LM-1

-David Garibaldi programmed the beat as a preset, which Prince based the song on.

ha, the first thing i did when i got home today was work out 777-9311 on drums.

― some know what you dude last summer (Jordan), Thursday, November 20, 2008 7:38 PM (thirteen years ago) bookmarkflaglink

Lol, I do remember trying to figure it out but I probably wasn't playing it very well. Went back to it this week and it's a bit closer:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CdbCDpYFq_F/

nice playing

interesting idea to program a beat like that

23:30, more or less

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOapYnlQMNQ

Insane skills Jordan!

ty!

Prince performing "777-9311" with The Time in Paris back in 2011. @BartFunk pic.twitter.com/WnoCa45cvx

— Bass Magazine (@BassMagOnline) August 18, 2022

Prince performing 777-9311 with Prince

(cool though, I love that he was playing bass live)

Yeah, I noticed the lack of Time.

I saw him play "Kiss" once and for some reason he played lead slap bass instead of guitar.