Robyn

The "meaningful lyrics" standard is a bit of a straw man but I don't disagree with you on the general importance of lyrics in pop music. Parsing Robyn for deep meaning obviously misses the point. That said, lyrics can be bad enough that they distract, and the words on the Body Talk project are so in-your-face on that they are impossible to ignore. "Include me out", "don't fucking tell me what to do", "none of dem", "once you've gone tech you never go back" are cringeworthy and distracting.

Hang With Me is probably my track of the year and that's because the lyrics melt into the background and let me enjoy the songwriting and production. The combination of Robyn's distinctive vocal delivery, the front-loading of the vocals in the mix, the ridiculous lyrical content, and occasional moments when the melody itself highlights the ridiculous lyrical content make that impossible on much of the rest of Body Talk. I wish it were otherwise.

the idea that a good voice oft makes for bland albums is pretty laughable on the whole.

I think this statement is deeply OTM and says more about the laziness of listeners than anything else; if you want a reason for why a Mariah Carey album is unsatisfying, the answer is likely going to be found in some of the material she's singing, not because her voice is "too good" (not that anyone's saying that about Mariah these days)

xp: lol "Don't Fucking Tell Me What To Do" is the only song on Body Talk vol 1 that I've played more than twice

"once you've gone tech you never go back" are cringeworthy and distracting.

Didn't even know this is what she was saying.

I got into Robyn at the same time I was into Rachel Stevens and Girls Aloud in a big way, so limited vocals are cool in my book.

Right, I don't think there is an implied correlation between "good" voices and "bad" albums (i.e., a good voice guarantees neither a good album, nor a bad one). The point is that there is NO correlation; and, that those listening to pop albums solely on account of good voices are not necessarily listening to the "best" albums, specifically because there is hardly any correlation between good voices and interesting pop songs.

xp to HI DERE

Though, I am hesitant to start talking about anything related to good voices w/ HI DERE, on account of the last convo we had on that subject...

i actually do think Hang With Me is a pretty great, wide-reaching pop song.

Try listening to any released in the last 10 decades, however, and by its 73rd minute, you'll be clawing your ears out.

50 mins then gtfo

Parsing Robyn for deep meaning obviously misses the point.

I can't even understand this. Criticism is "parsing" anything for "deep meaning."

, that those listening to pop albums solely on account of good voices are not necessarily listening to the "best" albums

That is entirely dependent upon why you are listening to the album!

If you primarily listen to music for singers' voices, particularly singers of a certain style, the intricacies of the songwriting behind them is going to be important to you only insofar as it shows off the person singing the song. One of the reasons why both Celine Dion and Beyonce get away with singing some of their more egregiously awful songs is because people really, really love the way they both sound on them. Delving into the songwriting is likely to remain the province of the minority of listeners.

That Voice review is good prose but obnoxious criticism. He's very self-important about taking down Robyn's fans (with exclamation marks to denote sarcasm!) and has a real bee in his bonnet about her perceived narcissism (again in relation to her fans). Does he think Dancing Is My Own is a true story? He's not a humourless writer but he's completely missed the humour in Robyn's songwriting.

Cuz she's not funny?

also she has the gall to appear in her videos.

It's one thing to not enjoy Robyn's sense of humour, it's quite another to pretend it isn't there at all. I hate critics who slam an artist for not being what their "loudest fans", "champions" and "music snobs" claim, without specifying what those claims are. I also hate critics who write lines like: "As she transitioned from Max Martin–molded tart to a dish of her own design…" Ugh.

It is coming across more like you hate critics you disagree with.

That article smacks of the guy not only not liking her music, but annoyed that the indie fans like it and claim it as their own for some reason. So on top of 'she's not that good' (fair enough) he wants to show her up as no more than your standard pop artist.

also this

the broken booty bass of "Criminal Intent" would get her ass laughed out right out of Miami

annoys me.

xpost. Not at all. I like plenty of critics I disagree with - I just find the tone of this review weird and offputting. It's too pedantic, full of misreadings, and, as Gukbe says, depends too much on ranting about strawman "music snobs", ie people he disagrees with.

I've never read this guy before - maybe he was having a weird day.

the broken booty bass of "Criminal Intent" would get her ass laughed out right out of Miami

HI DERE

actually, Rich is one of the more generous and thorough critics out there.

http://fourfour.typepad.com/fourfour/2010/07/a-collage-for-a-collage.html

Another of his pieces

Oh that was him? Loved that.

the idea that a good voice oft makes for bland albums is pretty laughable on the whole.

― janice (surm), Thursday, September 9, 2010 2:15 PM (55 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I obviously wasn't arguing that good voices make bad albums, but rather that good voices are neither necessary nor sufficient conditions for good pop albums. I will likely get laughed at for this opinion, but fuck it: I prefer the new Kesha record to the last Mariah record. Now, I recognize that Kesha is pretty obnoxious, can't sing for shit, and writes terrible lyrics. Compared to Mariah Carey, she's nothing. But try listening to E=MC2 and I guarantee you'll turn it off by the fifth track. It's just boring. At least Kesha sounds young/fun.

That said, lyrics can be bad enough that they distract, and the words on the Body Talk project are so in-your-face on that they are impossible to ignore. "Include me out", "don't fucking tell me what to do", "none of dem", "once you've gone tech you never go back" are cringeworthy and distracting.

Hang With Me is probably my track of the year and that's because the lyrics melt into the background and let me enjoy the songwriting and production. The combination of Robyn's distinctive vocal delivery, the front-loading of the vocals in the mix, the ridiculous lyrical content, and occasional moments when the melody itself highlights the ridiculous lyrical content make that impossible on much of the rest of Body Talk. I wish it were otherwise.

― skip, Thursday, September 9, 2010 2:17 PM (54 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Honestly, I don't find those lyrics cringeworthy at all.

As for "Hang With Me," she didn't write it (neither the lyrics nor the song). So that's probably why you like it more. I love it. It's tremendous. And I'm glad we agree on that front.

That article smacks of the guy not only not liking her music, but annoyed that the indie fans like it and claim it as their own for some reason. So on top of 'she's not that good' (fair enough) he wants to show her up as no more than your standard pop artist.

― a cankle of rads (Gukbe), Thursday, September 9, 2010 2:47 PM (24 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

OTM

But try listening to E=MC2 and I guarantee you'll turn it off by the fifth track. It's just boring. At least Kesha sounds young/fun.

Do you realize who you're addressing here?

yeah, Mariah is not the way to go here.

I get where you're coming from, though that was covered by the Celine Dion mention upthread. It's like Olly Murs singing 'Twist and Shout' on X Factor.

first of all, Indexed, E=MC2 is not the last mariah album. second, it is a bad example of a Mariah album. it is definitely boring by the 5th or 6th track, but this is not the case for most of her albums.

I obviously wasn't arguing that good voices make bad albums
not so obvious. you said "In fact, it is regularly the pop singers with the best chops (i.e. Christina and Mariah Carey) who put out the most bland albums." same difference, in terms of argument.

also i would listen to mariah carey's worst album over kesha's best any day. any. day.

i'm pretty upfront about when mariah's music is shit, and she's definitely had her moments. but i wouldn't even dream of spinning a k$sha record in my house, like, ever.

Haha, fair enough, janice.

Just found this on NME's tracks you have to hear this week. I know Lex is really going to hate this but I think it's rather lovely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oB27jQkO0Cs

xp :D

funnily, i heard that bjork cover the other night

But try listening to E=MC2 and I guarantee you'll turn it off by the fifth track.

i've spun e=mc2 many a time and never turned it off by the 5th track. the 5th track is "side effects", for heaven's sake, one of the best songs of her career! and the 6th is all-time classic 4eva spring jam "i'm that chick"! i would probably skip the 7th track, "love story", though. can't even remember how that goes. but even then the second half still holds the excellent "o.o.c.", "for the record", "i wish you well"...

the broken booty bass of "Criminal Intent" would get her ass laughed out right out of Miami

this doesn't annoy me, because robyn gets a lot of undeserved plaudits for her beats, most of which are pretty weedy takes on club music. that track is booty bass for people who've heard of, but never heard (and aren't interested in hearing), booty bass.

rich j is maybe my favourite critic around, even when he's wrong (nicki minaj) he's basically right (that "family guy approach to referencing" line is seriously the only thing i've ever read about an artist i love that's made me genuinely reconsider for a minute).

actually, lex is right about the first 6 tracks on e=mc2. thanks for that reminder, lex. there is only 1 track in those 6 that isn't wonderful ("i stay in love," tho i know lex and i disagree on that).

however, e=mc2 definitely does boast a few decidedly bland tracks, and "i stay in love" really is a clunker as it is in the tracklist.

Fans thinking a critic's singling them out = very lame.

i like "i stay in love" but i wouldn't call it wonderful. shameless, maybe. i would sometimes skip it, but only sometimes.

i'm pretty embarrassed i said that about the 1st 6 tracks, considering a few of them are some of my favorite moments in her career.

but i still get what Indexed was saying about the record.

thing is turning e=mc2 off midway through because you're BORED doesn't make sense - that album is so all-over-the-place and stylistically varied that you might get sick of it for other reasons, but certainly not boredom. i could understand that criticism applied to memoirs, or indeed any of mariah's other albums, more than e=mc2.

no problems with the sentiment that the beats are crap it was just the way it was written.

my boyf really likes the bleeps. he says the synths are the main draw of robyn's music for him.

::shrug::

I hate critics who begin sentences with "See,"

That article is pretty much straight garbage, Lex. He has a couple of points: about how her voice is "limited" (er, who cares?) and how her sound since 2005 has become worse (I agree, but he doesn't really explain why, which might be interesting) but he surrounds it with so much mind-reading and defensiveness and unattractive condescension that it's impossible to even really understand what else he's on about for the rest of it. Or care.

lol I was going to do an extended super-trolly "he was writing in the persona he perceives from the album! GENIUS" line of argument but life is really too short

HI DERE said: I don't really hear smiley faces on "With Every Heartbeat" or "Be Mine"

Or "Hang With Me", or "Dancing on My Own"... etc. Robyn deserves better pans than this!

xpost Yes it is.

It's pretty clear he means "limited" not just technically (who cares), but emotionally -- and, yes, I do care.

Well, I think it's pretty clear that she's not just "smiley faces", i.e. the songs just mentioned above. So that criticism is rubbish.

For the record I think there are quite a few misses on both these EPs and I really wouldn't have minded her waiting a bit longer to put together one super-tight album. Given the fact that she's still putting the finishing touches on Pt 3 I kind of wonder if it was a personal finance thing, or a contract thing, where she really needed to just get some stuff out there before it was all really ready. The high points are exceedingly high for me though so..

the review pretty much says that her voice is fine technically but she fails at conveying most emotions, which...obv that's something to care about?

it's not "smiley faces" as in jolly happiness, it's "smiley faces" as in that smug cutesy thing she always has going on, even on her boring heartbreak ballads

I think she conveys emotions pretty well. Better than, say, Rachel Stevens (and that didn't hurt her at all).

it is the way in which she conveys emotion, not how much emotion she conveys. like i said a while ago, i often don't feel like i understand why she's singing what she's singing. i almost feel like she could take it or leave it.

that being said, i think "dancing on my own" and "hang with me" and even "don't fucking tell me what to do" are strong exceptions to that idea.

but yeah, i do care about a level of emotional investment in a song. there is a way to sound detached and still committed to what you're singing.

it probably did hurt r. stevens, really! idk stevens lucked out with some really well-crafted songs that conveyed the emotion in the songwriting, and i think her slight air of detachment was the right way to perform them; actually on a song-by-song basis, i think stevens did manage to communicate the emotions behind each song, it's just that overall she was a boring popstar character. robyn's songs aren't as well-written - mostly either nonsense or cliché with little in between - and to me, her voice always sounds a bit hectoring.

^^great word