Gay Marriage to Alfred: Your Thoughts

yes, i watched. Kutcher was 'pretty effective,' yes, and also 'kinda crazy,' if you disagree with him. also, not quite as informed as he might appear. were you aware that R-L's district went for Obama and is that consistent with your take on the cuban vote?

"Pretty effective" in this context means "cut through the bullshit." But he can be Dan Savage's cumboy.

were you aware that R-L's district went for Obama and is that consistent with your take on the cuban vote?

Not only did my district go for Obama, but the Cuban-American vote went overwhelmingly (by forty points in some districts) for McCain.

The speeches at the end of the rally in Seattle (including Balliet) were deadly boring and sucked the energy out of the crowd. The next thing ("Day without a Gay"?) is supposed to be on 12/10, with the idea being 10 months of events on the 10th of each. It was fantastic to see the huge number of people streaming down Pine St. from Capitol Hill though.

The Mormon church was able to spend over $20 million, by appealing to its members.

Why aren't people burning down the Mormon temples right now?

There would be complaints.

I'm proud we (Seattle peeps) were able to get about 6000 people together spontaneously, tho. I make a point to avoid podium protest speeches though.. sorry, Jaq.

A small but spirited bunch at South Coast on Saturday -- around 300 to 500 total, a lot of support from passerby.

There would be complaints.

Not from me!

I used this quote elsewhere, but any entity that spends at least $20 million dollars to help take away rights from people whose presence doesn't affect it at all must, in its inner core, hate itself -- severely. At this point, should people help allow it to implode? Or should it be left alone. /rhetorical.

The Mormons have made history with this, and it's a history they'll* eventually regret.

*"they" in "they'll" being those who stand to benefit most within the church. I'm leaving the pawns out of this.

lolz protests. the time to protest was BEFORE the election guys

ppl are saying this (ditto fundraising)

Shakey, you're right but you're sooo wrong as well

protests aint gonna do shit at this stage. now it goes to the courts.

I wonder if the missing chapter in the Book of Mormon ordered all residents of Utah to procure catamites.

we protested by voting no. not enough apparently.

I was trying to cast it as a Marriage Equality rally, rather than a protest against Prop 8 - I mean regardless of how much time I've spent in Orange County, I can't vote there. Still, my favorite slogan was "Keep Your Magic Panties Off My Civil Rights".

I liked the sign that said, "Do You Want ME Marrying Your Daughter?"

shakey, if you think the post-election protests aren't doing shit right now, please step up and explain, or step off, seriously.

Enough waiting for the fucking courts.

i think the el coyote protest/boycott is stupid -- one person gave $100 to the "yes" effort and the entire business has to go down with the ship? granted the restaurant sucks, but FIGHT THE REAL ENEMY etc.

Enough waiting for the fucking courts.

Well, it looks like the fucking courts will probably deal with it next.

shakey, if you think the post-election protests aren't doing shit right now, please step up and explain, or step off, seriously. Enough waiting for the fucking courts.

Not sure what course of action you're advocating here, exactly...? what are the protests accomplishing? how will marriage rights be guaranteed without the legal process? Prop 8 has passed. There is no un-passing it (at least not until the next election). The only way it will be struck down is through legal challenges.

Look, this is the civil rights challenge of our generation, and it took the Warren court to give steel to the legislation.

Dan Savage on Colbert was spot on about old people. It's a shame that bigotry has to die out vs. people getting mellow and enlightened in their last decades.

what are the protests accomplishing?

A whole helluva lot of publicity that's keeping the issue in the news... which is exactly what it needs as long as possible, especially now that we know Obama has been elected.

Yes, nothing can't officially change until the courts or a reverse initiative passes, but you can't just tell people to shut up and be quiet about it, then just wake up before the next call, which was EXACTLY the fucking problem BEFORE Prop 8 passed, right?

(Savage has been great on this issue btw)

Dan Savage on Colbert was spot on about old people. It's a shame that bigotry has to die out vs. people getting mellow and enlightened in their last decades.

i agree with this. but it's true that every time attitudes change en masse, it's because of one generation dying off and a new generation being born that can think for itself. unless they become born-again xtians. but i think the fundie youth is a vocal minority.

and for the record I'm not telling people to "shut up" I'm just noting that protests at this particular juncture aren't going to accomplish anything beyond giving people a forum to vent their anger. which is all well and good. but not exactly crucial to developing and implementing an effective legal strategy.

also don't expect anything from Obama on this on a federal level. while I take him at his word that he believes gay couples should have equal marriage rights, his position is to let the states' and the courts fight it out.

I'm just noting that protests at this particular juncture aren't going to accomplish anything beyond giving people a forum to vent their anger. which is all well and good. but not exactly crucial to developing and implementing an effective legal strategy.

With that attitude, white males would still be the only ones allowed to vote.

xp - Old people *can* change once they find out their loved ones -- friends, family -- are gay or have close friends who are gay. Not all of them do, but I don't completely buy the "old people have to die out before we get anywhere" meme.

*sigh*

if you think protests now have the same PR effect as civil rights protests in the late 50s and early 60s you are sadly delusional

I think it's incredibly toxic to label civil rights' protesting as something that has missed its window of opportunity.

Having said that, if your protest does not have focus and organization, I do believe it is less likely to be successful. All of these things should really be linked and, where possible, feed into a larger machine, preferably one using the legal system to cement its case. That lack of organization is precisely what makes protests turn into venting sessions or out-and-out riots.

my "favorite" argument among the yes on 8 guys is that being gay is "not natural" -- but all the artificial crap you put in and on your body every day, all the toxic chemicals in your household products, all the synthetics in your clothing and furniture, that you CHOOSE to buy, that's all god's will.

HI DERE completely on the money. I'm rarely a pro-protest guy, but the concurrent Saturday protests was definitely a step towards the organized and angry protests that can make a difference, as Dan notes. As far as I know, none of them turned into riots. I might agree that the venting sections are past their prime.

As Mark Leno pointed out on Saturday, here in SF, Prop 8 won 52%-48%. Prop 22, in 2000, won 61.4% to 38.6% with the same wording.

Michael, surely you mean California voted that way, not San Francisco?

one of the reasons civil rights protests (and the Gandhi-an tactics they were based on) worked so well was because they provoked an inappropriately violent response on the part of the opposition, and for the first time the mass media was there to document it. It wasn't that a bunch of people showed up in public angry about something - it was the fact that they're showing up resulted in them getting beaten, hosed down, attacked with dogs, etc. and those images went out into the national press, which garnered sympathy for the civil rights movement on a previously unheard of level. That shit is not going to happen this time around. Law enforcement is smarter now. And if anyone is successfully playing the victim card, its the right-wing fundies who are complaining about being "threatened" and "harassed" etc.

I hope its clear that I am entirely supportive of the cause here. I am just concerned about effective tactics. The tactics that are the most emotionally satisfying are not necessarily the ones that will result in the desired outcome.

x-postiness

protests can and still do have an effect imo. especially when the other (wrong) side doesn't have a reasonable argument beyond bigotry and some lame shit about how marriage must be preserved. the protests here can and perhaps are working because it's such a one-sided issue.

So, protests need to get to Kent State levels and circumstances to be effective? Please try again. And I'm glad you're trying, but come on.

there's no mention of Kent State in his post, Mackro, nor is the analogy apt.

There was some venting on Saturday here, but many of the speeches were more about equality than revenge and were intended to appeal even to religious people by keeping the argument about fairness and equality under the law. As a positive sign of an inclusive movement, I think they're useful for PR and as an opportunity for the aggrieved to bond and feel less hopeless, they're good for the base.

fair enough - xp

Old people *can* change once they find out their loved ones -- friends, family -- are gay or have close friends who are gay. Not all of them do, but I don't completely buy the "old people have to die out before we get anywhere" meme.

Defection at the fringes ain't a trend. People currently under 40 were overwhelmingly against 8; people currently over 60 were overwhlemingly against.

The difference was 300,000 votes. Next year a whole bunch of under 40s will be old enough to vote for the first time, and a whole bunch of over 60s will be dead. You do the math.

xpost and yeah those are Cali numbers SF was 25% for 75% against

wow, 1 in 4 people in SF or SF county voted for Prop 8? (sorry, I guess I can't be happy with any data today.. apologies)

xpost and yeah those are Cali numbers SF was 25% for 75% against

sigh, i love SF (even taking what mackro just said into account)

http://womenshistory.about.com/od/suffrage1900/a/august_26_wed.htm

oh look, they protested too and no one turned a hose on them, yet their cause was victorious

I think, Shakey, you are conflating "one reason why the Civil Rights Movement protests worked" with "the only reason protests work".

Honestly, I think the more effective thing to do (in terms of making a rhetorical point, not in terms of making an actual legislative change) would be to organize a lobby to completely divorce the legal status associated with marriage from the marriage union itself and make civil unions mandatory for things like property ownership/transferal upon death, medical access rights, etc etc and make all people who want those things to have a civil union, as we are talking about civil rights here and not religious rights.

xp: Scary idiots live everywhere, guys! This is not news!

l.a. county was REALLY FUCKING CLOSE -- it ended up being something like 51%/49%, but toward the end there was something like a half percentage point difference.

http://imgs.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2008/11/13/ba-sfvote1114_gr_SFCG1226624392.jpg

A little outreach will be required, it looks.

xp: Scary idiots live everywhere, guys! This is not news!

I know I know.. just the idea that 25% of SF is filled with Raymonds (of Raymond & Peter fame). SHUDDER.

(granted, I'm avoiding the can of worms labeled "race")