― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 20:49 (twenty years ago) link
― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 20:49 (twenty years ago) link
― scott seward, Wednesday, 12 November 2003 20:51 (twenty years ago) link
― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 20:52 (twenty years ago) link
http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B0000251KX.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 20:53 (twenty years ago) link
― scott seward, Wednesday, 12 November 2003 20:56 (twenty years ago) link
Hey, thanks everyone!
So the general consensus is that there is no underlying political message here? :)
Morrissey seems uhh, opinionated... so I thought maybe he was laying some deeper shit on us here or something.
Perhaps he is just mildly obsessed with cripples (ala early john lennon)?
― paige, Wednesday, 12 November 2003 20:57 (twenty years ago) link
― Rick Spence (spencerman), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 20:58 (twenty years ago) link
― scott seward, Wednesday, 12 November 2003 21:00 (twenty years ago) link
― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 21:04 (twenty years ago) link
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 21:07 (twenty years ago) link
― pauls00, Wednesday, 12 November 2003 21:34 (twenty years ago) link
ok, not really much like that at all...
― paulhw (paulhw), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 22:00 (twenty years ago) link
Oh, one fine day Let it be soon She won't be rich or beautiful But she'll be walking your streets In the clothes that she went out And chose for herself. A victory for the outsider character! She is ugly and deformed, but asserts her individuality by choosing and buying and wearing and walking in her own clothes.
Morrissey is appalled by the notion that people consider it 'tactful' to pass over oddballs and mis-shapes and misfits in silence. He derides the 'mad mad lovers', those 'hedonists' who seem game for anything and anyone, but, like the worst 19th century eugenecists, will 'pause and draw the line' when confronted by anything but the most perfectly regular features. What could be less right wing than this song?
Morrissey later revisited the theme in 'You're The One For Me, Fatty' -- which again some people took, foolishly, as weightist. He seems to me an exemplary feminist.
― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 22:40 (twenty years ago) link
A symbol of where mad, mad lovers Must PAUSE and draw the line. So sleep and dream of love Because it's the closest You will get to love That November Is a time Which I must Put OUT of my mind
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 23:15 (twenty years ago) link
― Ann Sterzinger (Ann Sterzinger), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 23:17 (twenty years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 23:18 (twenty years ago) link
Morrissey would have no interest in making us sympathise with a winner. That would be reactionary. So he spends most of the song setting the character up as a loser, then lets her win in a small way at the end.
And that's as close to 'uplifting' as M gets. I think it's very uplifting, like a Stan Douglas film with a tiny glimpse of redemption at the end.
― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 23:27 (twenty years ago) link
― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 23:28 (twenty years ago) link
One fine dayLet it be soonShe will be rich and beautiful
That would have given hope to all the hideously disfigured people, wouldn't it? They could all get plastic surgery, write a book about it, make a million, and run for president.
No.
― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 23:31 (twenty years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 23:37 (twenty years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 23:38 (twenty years ago) link
It's called 'being British', Dan! God knows, I've written these kinds of songs myself.
I'm just counting down to someone demanding testily that I defend the indefensibility of 'Bengali In Platforms' now.
10, 9, 8, 7...
(And I could too, but that's another thread.)
5, 4, 3, 2...
― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 23:41 (twenty years ago) link
― Ann Sterzinger (Ann Sterzinger), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 23:45 (twenty years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 23:46 (twenty years ago) link
― Ann Sterzinger (Ann Sterzinger), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 23:49 (twenty years ago) link
And there's the question of deformity as inverted narcissism. Morrissey's whole schtick is about his own adolescence in the 70s, when he was very isolated, no doubt gripped by simultaneous feelings of huge inferiority and huge superiority. He often claims to this day in interviews that he's either irresistible or hideous. Nothing in between.
― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 23:50 (twenty years ago) link
'She passed by the loving couples, She turned her head away;She passed by the loving couples, And they didn't ask her to stay.'
suggests to me that Morrissey could even have had this poem in mind when he wrote 'November'. Note that Auden's ending is much darker.
― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 23:53 (twenty years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 13 November 2003 00:01 (twenty years ago) link
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 13 November 2003 00:07 (twenty years ago) link
* The massively successful dwelling on and celebrating massive success and winning
with the politics of
* The massively successful dwelling on and celebrating failure and losing
Isn't it clear that to cite Morrissey's creation of loser characters as some sign of right wing proclivities is just wrong? And a terrible slur on a humanist.
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 13 November 2003 00:11 (twenty years ago) link
― E. (ebb), Thursday, 13 November 2003 00:16 (twenty years ago) link
― scott seward, Thursday, 13 November 2003 00:19 (twenty years ago) link
dude, yer the only one going on and on about right-wing moz conspiracy theories. we all love the big freakin' weirdo.
― scott seward, Thursday, 13 November 2003 00:21 (twenty years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 13 November 2003 00:23 (twenty years ago) link
Hm. Funny, since Morrissey's a lot better looking than Auden if you ask me.
― Ann Sterzinger (Ann Sterzinger), Thursday, 13 November 2003 00:25 (twenty years ago) link
Hm.
― Ann Sterzinger (Ann Sterzinger), Thursday, 13 November 2003 00:26 (twenty years ago) link
In this reading, the lines
she'll be walking your streets In the clothes that she went out And chose for herself
are a strong symbol of 'coming out of the closet'. Walking down the street, defiantly proclaiming who you are, despite your exclusion from the hetero mating games.
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 13 November 2003 00:30 (twenty years ago) link
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 13 November 2003 00:33 (twenty years ago) link
― scott seward, Thursday, 13 November 2003 00:35 (twenty years ago) link
― Ann Sterzinger (Ann Sterzinger), Thursday, 13 November 2003 00:40 (twenty years ago) link
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 13 November 2003 00:44 (twenty years ago) link
... AND narcissistic, so well, yes maybe you ARE kind of a monster, Mr. Pretty, but not for the reasons people think you are, eh? {gargle snicker gargle gargle}
― Ann Sterzinger (Ann Sterzinger), Thursday, 13 November 2003 00:52 (twenty years ago) link
― Mary (Mary), Thursday, 13 November 2003 06:19 (twenty years ago) link
― 39 Steps + 40 Winks (39 Steps + 40 Winks), Thursday, 13 November 2003 10:13 (twenty years ago) link
― Pablo Cruise (chaki), Thursday, 13 November 2003 11:06 (twenty years ago) link
Morrissey was condemned for wrapping himself in a union jack at a live concert. But Primal Scream were not condemned for putting the confederate flag, a much more 'rightist' symbol, on their 'Give Out, But Don't Give Up' album sleeve. Later, the same journalists invented 'Britpop', which used the union jack at every opportunity.
Morrissey's comments on the encroachment of globalism -- 'We are the last truly English people you will ever know' -- were considered suspiciously rightist, but when Billy Bragg later picked up the same theme it was seen as leftist, a logical extension of the identity politics of racial minorities to the white English themselves. Morrissey was condemned for his aesthetic conservatism -- for not, for instance, jumping onto the dance bandwagon in the early 90s, sticking instead stubbornly to guitars. Certainly he didn't make things easy for himself by declaring reggae 'vile', but we have to ask if any reggae artists were chided for failing to incorporate indie rock music into their style, and whether their dislike of other music genres would have been held against them as a sign of their reactionary politics?
It was all too often assumed that because Morrissey depicted the difficulties of Asian immigrants in the UK he was anti-immigration. This is like saying that anyone who writes a sad song about problems and disappointments in love is anti-love. And all the artists who fail to depict a Britain in which ethnic minorities, especially Asian ones, even exist at all, they're morally better, right?
Asian Rut depicts an Asian boy who has come to avenge the racially-motivated killing of his friend. But he in turn is beaten up. A disgusted Morrissey editorialises:
'I'm just passing through here On my way to somewhere civilised And maybe I'll even arrive Maybe I'll even arrive'
The statement could be the Asian boy's, or it could be his own. There's no reason why either of them should feel at home in England.
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 13 November 2003 11:09 (twenty years ago) link
― flowersdie (flowersdie), Thursday, 13 November 2003 11:27 (twenty years ago) link
'According to the garbled and inaccurate article [in The Sun newspaper] the track in question was entitled 'Handsome Devil' - and it contained "clear references to picking up kids for sexual kicks". When questioned by The Sun about his "controversial lyrics" Morrissey is reported as saying "I don't feel immoral singing about molesting children."
'What man would sign his own death warrant thus?.. Following the spot-the-pervert accusations in The Sun, Sounds ran a damning indictment of the band in their gossip colum Jaws - penned by none other than Garry Bushell, a fervent enemy of the Mancunian quartet.'
Morrissey is quite right: it is not inherently immoral to sing about child molestation, any more than it is racist to sing about racial problems.
Anyone who knows British journalism knows that the name Garry Bushell is synonymous with the populist right, Morrissey's true enemies.
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 13 November 2003 11:46 (twenty years ago) link
― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:05 (twenty years ago) link
― El Diablo Robotico (Nicole), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:05 (twenty years ago) link
― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:08 (twenty years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:09 (twenty years ago) link
Ditto. Should we seek professional help?
― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:10 (twenty years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:11 (twenty years ago) link
On with the battle!
The line about 'the last truly British people you will ever know' is from 'We'll Let You Know', a song about football fans:
We're all smiles Then, honest, I swear, it's the turnstiles That make us hostile Oh ... We will descend On anyone unable to defend Themselves Oh ... Your Arsenal ! We may seem cold, or We may even be The most depressing people you've ever known At heart, what's left, we sadly know That we are the last truly British people you'll ever know We are the last truly British people you will ever know You'll never never want to know'
The obvious meaning of the song didn't stop John Harris in the NME from declaring:
'There are moments on this record when the hints of hideous political sympathies that have provided his detractors with new ammunition become full-frontal reminders of why Morrissey needed taking to task in the first place. Here, "England for the English", the line from 'National Front Disco' that began life as a non-committal slogan stolen from someone else's mouth, sounds worryingly like a sincere clarion call - and after a two-minute feedback coda Morrissey announces that he was thinking of releasing the song as a single. Very clever move.It's not the only chilling moment, either. You listen to 'We'll Let You Know', the song that talks about bovver-booted beer lads as "the last truly British people you'll ever know", visualise Morrissey wrapping himself in the flag in front of a backdrop featuring two skinheads, and feel slightly sick.'
Is this stupidity on Harris' part, or wilful misrepresentation?
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:11 (twenty years ago) link
― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:12 (twenty years ago) link
― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:14 (twenty years ago) link
― Chris Ott (Chris Ott), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:20 (twenty years ago) link
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:23 (twenty years ago) link
― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:24 (twenty years ago) link
It ain't got Dizzee Rascal on it, that's what's wrong with the cunt.
― Jus' A Rascal! Dizzee Rascal!!, Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:31 (twenty years ago) link
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:31 (twenty years ago) link
― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:33 (twenty years ago) link
― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:35 (twenty years ago) link
― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:37 (twenty years ago) link
― o. nate (onate), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:38 (twenty years ago) link
― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:39 (twenty years ago) link
― Eyeball Kicks (Eyeball Kicks), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:44 (twenty years ago) link
we're taking Just keeping The population down You're giving, giving, giving Well, it's your own fault For reproducing We're just keeping The population down
sounds like an editorial to me, a claim to gay virtue straight out of some radical crusading gay magazine.
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:44 (twenty years ago) link
― Chris Ott (Chris Ott), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:46 (twenty years ago) link
― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:46 (twenty years ago) link
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:48 (twenty years ago) link
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:49 (twenty years ago) link
― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:50 (twenty years ago) link
of course you could say that its a claim to virtue in celibacy
― zappi (joni), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:52 (twenty years ago) link
― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:57 (twenty years ago) link
You forgot Mortiis.
I like Suzy's point because I made a similar one in an a.m.a. review of Maladjusted when it came out, ie that somehow the Smiths had both won (the obvious influences and connections via all the bands that Suzy lists) and lost (Moz's beloved pop obsessions of the past had become even MORE of the past, and even more now -- not merely in the passage of time sense, but the new combinations of mainstream pop and presentation since).
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 13 November 2003 16:28 (twenty years ago) link
― Mary (Mary), Monday, 17 November 2003 20:00 (twenty years ago) link
I love how googling "Stevie Smith" and "Morrissey" together takes me to an OTM Momus post from years ago. Stevie Smith's poetry is very reminiscent of Morrissey's lyrics and themes.
― Cunga, Tuesday, 8 December 2009 20:03 (fourteen years ago) link
I'm still back on "it's an uplifting song because, even though she's so hideous no one will ever love or want her, she can dress herself"
― Huckabee Jesus lifeline (HI DERE), Tuesday, 8 December 2009 20:11 (fourteen years ago) link