Lattimore:Sing, goddess, the anger of Peleus’ son Achilleusand its devastation, which put pains thousandfold upon the Achaians,hurled in their multitudes to the house of Hades strong soulsof heroes, but gave their bodies to be the delicate feastingof dogs, of all birds, and the will of Zeus was accomplishedsince that time when first there stood in division of conflictAtreus’ son the lord of men and brilliant Achilleus.
the fagles version seems a lot better to me, much more direct and memorable: you can imagine someone chanting it out loud, where the lattimore seems like a bunch of good phrases randomly slung together with awkward syntax ("hurled in their multitudes" is good, but "division of conflict" just sounds fussy and lame).
― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 22:53 (nineteen years ago) link
However: The Lattimore version is classic, and necessary. Lattimore does extraordinary work in faithfully recreating the homeric hexameter (dactylic, for those keeping score at home), and some of his less successful english phrases surface Hellenic ideals and cultural touchstones that the Fagles blurs. It reminds us that the Greeks, in addition to initiating Teh Western Tradition, were alien beings rather than simply buffer reflections of ourselves.
Fagles is certainly more modern. For better and for worse, so are his Achaeans.
― rogermexico (rogermexico), Wednesday, 31 August 2005 23:24 (nineteen years ago) link
― Casuistry (Chris P), Thursday, 1 September 2005 03:50 (nineteen years ago) link
THE Wrath of Peleus' Son, the direful SpringOf all the Grecian Woes, O Goddess, sing!That Wrath which hurl'd to Pluto's gloomy ReignThe Souls of mighty Chiefs untimely slain;Whose Limbs unbury'd on the naked ShoreDevouring Dogs and hungry Vultures tore.Since Great Achilles and Atrides strove,Such was the Sov'reign Doom, and such the Will of Jove.
I know they were fashionable at the time, but those damn heroic couplets are crazymaking!
― rogermexico (rogermexico), Thursday, 1 September 2005 04:09 (nineteen years ago) link
― Casuistry (Chris P), Thursday, 1 September 2005 04:22 (nineteen years ago) link
― rogermexico (rogermexico), Thursday, 1 September 2005 04:27 (nineteen years ago) link
― I Ain't No Addict, Whoever Heard of a Junkie as Old as Me? (noodle vague), Thursday, 1 September 2005 08:50 (nineteen years ago) link
The names of the Roman Gods are the suck.
― DV (dirtyvicar), Thursday, 1 September 2005 08:58 (nineteen years ago) link
― AaronK (AaronK), Thursday, 1 September 2005 09:36 (nineteen years ago) link
― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Thursday, 1 September 2005 10:43 (nineteen years ago) link
― I Ain't No Addict, Whoever Heard of a Junkie as Old as Me? (noodle vague), Thursday, 1 September 2005 11:55 (nineteen years ago) link
That, of course, is what I was saying, if that wasn't clear.
― Casuistry (Chris P), Friday, 2 September 2005 01:37 (nineteen years ago) link
― rogermexico (rogermexico), Friday, 2 September 2005 02:04 (nineteen years ago) link
I try and read both each year ( have read both at some point being a classics bore) as a new year's resolution. Goes down well with red wine. But I get to about half way and end up looking up Ulysses 31 on you tube. Now that was an epic.
― Proger, Tuesday, 17 May 2011 17:56 (thirteen years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ4c1X5ene8
Is it not wonderful?
― Proger, Tuesday, 17 May 2011 17:58 (thirteen years ago) link
Also see "Odysseus, the greatest hero of them all," a narrated tale by Tony Robbinson. Shamefully neglected and impossible to track down. But fantastic TV.
― Proger, Tuesday, 17 May 2011 18:03 (thirteen years ago) link
I remember ROFLing over the end credits, because the French production company was called DIC Entertainment.
― got a whole lotta gloves (snoball), Tuesday, 17 May 2011 18:06 (thirteen years ago) link
Classic shit though. 'Ol Uly had a gun that doubled as a laser sword. Beat that Obi-Wan.
― got a whole lotta gloves (snoball), Tuesday, 17 May 2011 18:08 (thirteen years ago) link
Search on google for Odysseus the greatest hero of them all and you get "the moondial" which was pretty good too, but more so a few years later when the main actress was in another series getting down and dirty.
― Proger, Tuesday, 17 May 2011 18:10 (thirteen years ago) link
Anyway, I am sure that shows like Dogtanian, Mysterious Cities of Gold, Belle and Sebastian (the cartoon) and Willie Fogg have their own threads.
― Proger, Tuesday, 17 May 2011 18:13 (thirteen years ago) link
In a similar vein, hitler stole charlie chaplin's moustache and, I ask you, what good came of it? none
― Aimless, Tuesday, 17 May 2011 18:16 (thirteen years ago) link
I am not sure that I understand that last post. Was it saying that Virgil stole the ideas off Homer for his epic poem (which he obviously did, to Venerate Augustus) or are you slagging off Ulysses 31?All these folk had tashes.
I like the idea that the once powerful Olympian God are extant but no longer venerated. They hand out in pubs all day and at the bookies waiting for their dole and Hermes works for a motorbike messenger service and Aphrodite as an escort. Without worship they are nothing.
PS sorry, tired and on the beer.
― Proger, Tuesday, 17 May 2011 18:30 (thirteen years ago) link
That's an idea for a BBC3 sit-com there.
― got a whole lotta gloves (snoball), Tuesday, 17 May 2011 18:31 (thirteen years ago) link
Hang out, they hang out in pubs.
― Proger, Tuesday, 17 May 2011 18:32 (thirteen years ago) link
i'm going in (the iliad), splashed out on the new Emily Wilson version.
Goddess, sing of the cataclysmic wrathof great Achilles, son of Peleus,which caused the Greeks immeasurable pain and sent so many noble souls of heroesto Hades, and made men the spoils of dogs,a banquet for birds, and so the planof Zeus unfolded - starting with the conflictbetween great Agamemnon, lord of menand glorius Achilles.
have read several modern retellings of this (Pat Barker, Stephen Fry, Natalie Haynes etc) so i know pretty much all the details, but haven't read an actual translation before.
― koogs, Wednesday, 4 September 2024 19:22 (two months ago) link
I love Logue's War Music, wish he had finished it. wonder what he would have done with the scene between Priam and Achilles.
This is worth reading: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/simone-weil-the-iliad
― default damager (lukas), Wednesday, 4 September 2024 20:43 (two months ago) link
just to give the flavor of Logue's version (not a translation really)
Headlock. Body slam. Hands that do not reach back. Low dust.Stormed by Chylabborak, driven in by AbasseeThe light above his circle hatched with spearsOdysseus to Sheepgrove:'Get lord Idomeneo from the ridge.'Then prays:'Brainchild Athena, Holy Girl,As one you madeAs calm and cool as water in a well.I know that you have cares enoughOther than those of me and mine.Yet, Daughter of God, without your helpWe cannot last.'Setting down her topaz saucer heaped with nectarine jellyEmptying her blood-red mouth set in her ice-white faceTeenaged Athena jumped up and shrieked:'Kill! Kill for me!Better to die than to live without killing!'Who says prayer does no good?
'Get lord Idomeneo from the ridge.'
Then prays:
'Brainchild Athena, Holy Girl,As one you madeAs calm and cool as water in a well.I know that you have cares enoughOther than those of me and mine.Yet, Daughter of God, without your helpWe cannot last.'
Setting down her topaz saucer heaped with nectarine jellyEmptying her blood-red mouth set in her ice-white faceTeenaged Athena jumped up and shrieked:'Kill! Kill for me!Better to die than to live without killing!'
Who says prayer does no good?
― default damager (lukas), Wednesday, 4 September 2024 22:38 (two months ago) link
it's taken 3 days to get through the 70 pages of preamble. she talks a good talk, let's see if the translation's any good. (it is the most recent, took her 5 years, and people seem to like it. it was also 11x what i normally spend on ebooks)
― koogs, Saturday, 7 September 2024 07:37 (one month ago) link
done with the iliad. took longer than expected (and the layout meant that a page was often two pages long on the kobo)
it's an odd thing, something modern in its framing - it's a month towards the end of a 10 year war, misses all the reasons AND the resolutions (doesn't cover, for instance, the death of achilles or the wooden horse). there is a lot of tedious, gory fighting. book 2 is pretty much a list of ships.
it's a great story but some of the modern retellings are more enjoyable (and there are many)
― koogs, Monday, 30 September 2024 09:05 (one month ago) link
It is very gory, thats one of the things that stuck with me. How many ways can someone poetically describe a spear going through a person's body?
― o. nate, Monday, 30 September 2024 12:59 (one month ago) link