Common People: A lyrical discussion/dissection

i think there are a lot of rap songs about "breaking away from working for a living" - i don't think the rappers are middle class though

think contenderizer may be trying to make middle class mean bourgeois, as in ownership of the means of production... these phrases are all p stupid and very approximate, but no-one else thinks of middle-class as meaning 'earns six figs, doesn't work for a living', and given the necessary intersubjectivity involved in linguistic acts... think contenderizer is off the money.

british class system-wise, jarvis doesn't bring up 'people on benefits' as part of the common people.

lsn peep dis i got more money than alla y'all but y'all don't see me spendin' them ends on somethin phat and swizzy and uploading jpgs of it for everyone to get jealous of rite?

fuk u all and ur class shit.

yeah - i think he's trying to emulate the bourgeois, petit bourgeois, prole taxonomy

there is no utility to any of these designations if that doesn't hold

― horseshoe, Friday, September 3, 2010 3:32 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark

sure there is. if you wanna say "making median income", then just say that. we often use "middle class" in political rhetoric to talk about some imaginary "average american", but i think that's a lousy way to conceptualize it. i equate the middle class to marx's petit bourgeois, those who exist alongside the working classes but have begun to assume a quasi-upper-class relationship to personal wealth. business owners and wealthy professionals in marx's eyes, but he was overly attached to the idea of ownership, imo. the owner of a very small business is much more working class than an investment banker making high six figures.

i.e., yes, what i'm doing is exactly what others say - importing marxist taxonomy.

but i'm also trying to insist that far, far more americans are really "working class" than many people think. there are well-to-do working class people and desperately poor working class people, and i'd argue that the vast majority of americans fall into this spectrum somewhere.

This might be a bit flippant but maybe it explains the failure of communication here between US and UK: People in Britain understand class, and class relations, in their guts, the way Americans do race - its the open wound that needs to be kept open if you are to understand how stuff 'really' works. Whereas British people tend to be quite literal and guileless about race, the way Americans are about class.

lsn peep dis i got more money than alla y'all but y'all don't see me spendin' them ends on somethin phat and swizzy and uploading jpgs of it for everyone to get jealous of rite?

fuk u all and ur class shit.

― spidermark, Friday, September 3, 2010 3:41 PM (3 minutes ago)

A+++++

this confusion occurs cuz in american political rhetoric 'middle class' does usually mean something like median income

'the middle class' especially, literally those in the normal income distribution range, no marxist connotations no siree

median is just 50th percentile though - someone can be making the median national income in the US but living in NYC or SF and not enjoy the comfortable lifestyle of the middle class

if we say regional median, then yeah

i think the "middle class" = average american = "YOU, dear voter" rhetorical equation is lame and should be done away with

in America none of us are average, we are all special snowflakes

is cntndrzr doing that thing where he makes up new definitions to suit his arg?

he's using definitions that aren't the most relevant or appropriate to the discussion, but this one he got from Marx

okay, so maybe my terms are weird, but the middle = median = you thing just creates bogus high/low tension between the "lower" & blue-collar "working class" and the white-collar but still working & job-dependent "middle"

proposal

poor
working/middle class
rich

nobody disagrees with you about the bogus invocation of "middle class" by American politicians, i don't think

xp

it's just kind of irritating when working class people perceive themselves as that "middle class" voter and end up voting against their best economic interests because of weird class aspirations, and it's also irritating when people who grew up middle class are in denial about it - either positing that they are higher or lower than what they are.

I don't think that's a very common problem in america? pretty much everyone who isn't bill gates or homeless claims to be middle class.

it's just kind of irritating when working class people perceive themselves as that "middle class" voter and end up voting against their best economic interests because of weird class aspirations

unpack?

cuz i think self-identified "working class" voters tend to vote against their best interests due more to religious pressure than due to class aspirations...

I think a lot of working class people believe that the american federal income tax system overburdens them - but that's partly because we have a country where anyone who has to pay any tax ever believes that they're overtaxed.

i think i'm still caught up in this argument i was having with some friends about why California has gone to shit, and how the biggest problem is because of Prop 13 - and working class people voting for it, and the result is that tuition at state colleges - where they used to be able to afford to send their kids to college - is now often out of reach.

what were they arguing?

they just weren't aware of the impact of Prop 13

but how as their opposition to prop 13 a product of class aspiration? you mean they just wanted to keep more of their hard-earned so that they might ascend?

home-ownership is an huge part of class aspiration

This might be a bit flippant but maybe it explains the failure of communication here between US and UK: People in Britain understand class, and class relations, in their guts, the way Americans do race - its the open wound that needs to be kept open if you are to understand how stuff 'really' works. Whereas British people tend to be quite literal and guileless about race, the way Americans are about class.

― sonofstan, Friday, 3 September 2010 23:45 (Yesterday)

this is well put, though the affective component can be understood

the essex office worker from a wc background is obviously lower middle class, but unless they become wealthy enough that any pretence of proletarian bona fides is rendered absurd, they and their neighbours will persist w/ saying they're working class

but wanting to cut yr property taxes seems more like short-sighted self interest blinding itself to long term consequences - not class aspiration as such

they were in denial about the fact that the cuts to state services - esp. in the form of low tuition at state schools - would have the greatest negative effect on them, as opposed to middle class or upper middle class people, who might struggle a bit to pay, but ultimately can.

but also what iatee said about home ownership

the wealthiest americans are the best at short-sightened self-interest blinding itself to long term consequences - so the lower classes just want to practice by voting for stupid propositions.

god Californians vote for stupid propositions - it often makes me embarrassed of where i'm from

I think people in most states would be voting for stupid propositions if they had the ability

good luck USA!

we are no switzerland

oh wait switzerland is horrible and racist now too

seriously though, when Minnesota elected Jesse Ventura, it did make me feel less embarrassed about Schwarzenegger - and the whole country voted for Reagan for President

http://0.tqn.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/X/t/2/protest-youth-in-asia.jpg

i get it. you mean they attempted to adopt the blitheness of more wealthy people wr2 the need for well-funded social services, and they did this as a product of their own class aspirations, their sense that they shouldn't have to worry about such things.

makes sense, especially to the extent that conservatives whip up anger among the less well-to-do working classes against the poor (when they actually share a great many interests in common)

makes sense, especially to the extent that conservatives whip up anger among the less well-to-do working classes against the poor (when they actually share a great many interests in common)

ding ding ding!

This is the part where I point out that Jesse Ventura was the mayor of a large suburb before running for state office, so the comparison with Arnie isn't quite level.

and a Californian might point out that Jesse was pwned by the Predator and Arnie kicked his ass

at least arnold's not a ron paul fan

maybe suzy should tell us more about Jarvis

i.e. we're way off topic right now

yeah, i liked that part

xpost

I did not vote for Jesse Ventura but I did like the 'thinker' ad very much.

The first time I heard this song was the first time Pulp ever played it live (I went to see most of their London shows, and saw the final one in Rotherham). I actually read the whole thread to make sure nobody had posted about Sophia - Wiki says it's another woman who's Cypriot, but I'm not certain they're right, because S. is really Greek, really a sculpture grad, and knew Jarvis. It still brings me LOLs that after this song, Jarv basically had a case of Lucky Jim syndrome and dumped his long-term partner for a very posh fashion person.

I thought goole's reading was the obvious and OTM way of interpreting the lyrics, wasn't aware that there were other ways to read the song. this thread is really confusing.