Would it be fair to say that in the u.s., power and money are just more imp8rtant than class?
― olivia tribble control (kkvgz), Friday, September 3, 2010 4:24 PM (25 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
money IS class in America
― horseshoe, Friday, 3 September 2010 20:25 (thirteen years ago) link
well, yes. I know that. I'm just trying to reach an agreement with everybody else so we can all go out an enjoy this labor day weekend.
― olivia tribble control (kkvgz), Friday, 3 September 2010 20:28 (thirteen years ago) link
contenderizer, your revulsion at twats is probably just because they're twats.
― a cankle of rads (Gukbe), Friday, 3 September 2010 20:29 (thirteen years ago) link
xp - power and money are stronger determinants of future status, opportunities, etc. But there are so many ilx threads that are America-centric that are about things that are basically class signifiers and the issues people have with them or affiliate with them - it definitely has an effect, though undoubtedly nowhere near the way it does in the UK
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 20:29 (thirteen years ago) link
― horseshoe, Friday, September 3, 2010 1:25 PM (4 minutes ago)
horseshoe are you familiar with the "Touch of Class" SUV limousine?
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 20:30 (thirteen years ago) link
is that just one of those stretch SUV limos? i have seen them around!
― horseshoe, Friday, 3 September 2010 20:33 (thirteen years ago) link
yes - pretty much - "Touch of Class" was the name of a company in Vegas that operated a fleet of them, that when i saw one, i shook my head and laughed, because those things are so ostentatiously a sign of failing at being classy.
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 20:34 (thirteen years ago) link
and that TV show - Jersey Shore?
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 20:36 (thirteen years ago) link
and i wonder if we're deliberately avoiding working class American attitudes towards class, and those of people of other classes, because it would involve a discussion about race
can't imagine that discussion going well, but...
― having taken an actual journalism class (contenderizer), Friday, 3 September 2010 20:37 (thirteen years ago) link
don't go there dude.
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 20:38 (thirteen years ago) link
haha for real
― feel free to answer my Korn Kuestion (HI DERE), Friday, 3 September 2010 20:38 (thirteen years ago) link
goole thoroughly OTM IMO
Given that the lyrics specifically paint a picture of someone ridiculously wealthy, arguing about whether it's attacking upper-middle/upper-class but cash poor people is kind of beside the point.
fun fact: neither posh, "middle class" nor any other class is actually referred to in the lyrics
― a cross between lily allen and fetal alcohol syndrome (milo z), Friday, 3 September 2010 20:39 (thirteen years ago) link
i think history mayne's interpretation is pretty solid
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 20:41 (thirteen years ago) link
nup
― having taken an actual journalism class (contenderizer), Friday, 3 September 2010 20:42 (thirteen years ago) link
help me describe how money does not equal class in America!
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 20:42 (thirteen years ago) link
class is culture as much as money. my mom's parents were east coast society snobs from way back, and so my mom was too, though she was just a schoolteacher and married badly. and so i am too, in a distant way, though i have always lived at the edge of poverty. similarly, lots of people attain wealth quickly but remain chavish, rent SUV stretch limos, purchase awful sprawling homes with no character, laugh too loudly at the wrong things and wear bad sandals.
― having taken an actual journalism class (contenderizer), Friday, 3 September 2010 20:47 (thirteen years ago) link
i guess i just feel like perceptions of class as culture are part of what contribute to Americans not actually being aware of how class affects their lives. i'm not saying people think of class as about money here; i guess i'm saying that they should.
― horseshoe, Friday, 3 September 2010 20:49 (thirteen years ago) link
otm
― Donovan Dagnabbit (WmC), Friday, 3 September 2010 20:50 (thirteen years ago) link
see, i feel like a lot of Americans do perceive class = money and dance around the cultural signifiers which are a relation to class and the values of various classes. Education is a big one. Consumer goods is another.
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 20:51 (thirteen years ago) link
vis-a-vis people like Sarah Palin and George Bush selling themselves as regular people when they are crazy rich
xxp
― horseshoe, Friday, 3 September 2010 20:51 (thirteen years ago) link
well yeah - but i see the problem with that as Palin and Bush politically fuck over "regular people" - like if they had politics that actually benefited working people, their public images wouldn't be as nauseating
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 20:54 (thirteen years ago) link
I've been told by multiple people, including some who know me very well (girlfriend who tried to downplay my class background in conversation) that I don't "seem working class." Which pisses me off on two levels - I take a lot of pride in my background, and I'm offended at the idea that listening to weird music or appearing to be intelligent in some way is a signifier that I didn't grow up helping my dad and grandfather out putting on roofs when I was 10 or that I don't have an irrational fear of money because I remember my parents scrambling for rent almost every month in elementary school.
Class is about money and opportunities (and yes, race).
― a cross between lily allen and fetal alcohol syndrome (milo z), Friday, 3 September 2010 20:54 (thirteen years ago) link
but your attitude about money is cultural.
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 20:55 (thirteen years ago) link
but sarahel, whatever people's attitudes about money some people measurably have more than others!!!
― horseshoe, Friday, 3 September 2010 20:55 (thirteen years ago) link
sure they do - but i'm saying that money affects people culturally as well as opposed to just materially.
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 20:57 (thirteen years ago) link
conspicuous consumption is part material wealth as well as cultural attitudes about money
― sarahel, Friday, September 3, 2010 3:51 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark
yeah, kind of...
i guess i'd put it like this: people in the US tend to kneejerk assume their political enemies are of a different class than themselves, either much richer, or poorer, or some unholy alliance of the two
this only really a percetpional battle within the median income bands, where political opinion is really up for grabs. you have to look at region, occupation and education to get a bead on who they vote for/what they believe, drilling down further than just yearly income.
however, the number of liberal billionaires is really small, no matter how much right wingers hate them. and the number of arch-conservative poor people is also small, no matter how much liberals are terrified of them.
― goole, Friday, 3 September 2010 20:59 (thirteen years ago) link
yeah, but that's self-evident and doesn't require further elaboration. what sarah's saying is not so obvious and opens up on some interesting subtleties. even if they carry less weight than the base-level money stuff.
― having taken an actual journalism class (contenderizer), Friday, 3 September 2010 21:00 (thirteen years ago) link
i'm talking more about lifestyle and social relationships more than politics -
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 21:01 (thirteen years ago) link
the number of arch-conservative poor people is also small
what exactly do you mean by "arch-conservative" here, because I feel like you are glossing over a large invisible-to-white-America cross-section of the American minority experience that can't be summed up by "votes Republican"
― feel free to answer my Korn Kuestion (HI DERE), Friday, 3 September 2010 21:01 (thirteen years ago) link
the number of arch-conservative poor people is also small, no matter how much liberals are terrified of them.
― goole, Friday, September 3, 2010 1:59 PM (31 seconds ago) Bookmark
this is somewhat true, but also misleading. the number of not entirely impoverished but lower-income arch conservatives is VAST.
― having taken an actual journalism class (contenderizer), Friday, 3 September 2010 21:02 (thirteen years ago) link
contenderizer i think you have it exactly backwards -- the cultural baggage of what we mean when we say e.g. "working class" is all very upfront, while the raw dollar values that underly all these things are occluded and take some digging to see clearly.
― goole, Friday, 3 September 2010 21:03 (thirteen years ago) link
where and how are they occluded? i think we might just be talking around each other - about different aspects of life.
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 21:04 (thirteen years ago) link
i mean, if you're referring to how "hot button" political issues are more about culture and moral beliefs as opposed to economics, then i totally agree.
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 21:06 (thirteen years ago) link
look, a guy who works in a hard hat and likes country! that's working class! a woman working in an office and bought the new franzen novel, middle class! see, so easy!
i'm saying, no, just, look at what these people are paid for their labor. i think focusing on culture doesn't really open up anything, it's already in the open! it's the $$ that's hidden
― goole, Friday, 3 September 2010 21:10 (thirteen years ago) link
some of the cultural stuff is out in the open, but some of it isn't!
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 21:13 (thirteen years ago) link
similarly, lots of people attain wealth quickly but remain chavish
haaa strange to see an american using that term....
― nakhchivan, Friday, 3 September 2010 21:13 (thirteen years ago) link
― goole, Friday, September 3, 2010 5:10 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
― horseshoe, Friday, 3 September 2010 21:14 (thirteen years ago) link
...and that, i think, its what's going on in the song, like i argued upthread. the girl wants to play around with a culture that looks free and fun, and the guy is trying to get her to see that it's the (materially) constrained nature of that life that makes it what it is.
xp to myself
― goole, Friday, 3 September 2010 21:15 (thirteen years ago) link
and how much someone gets paid for their labor is only so determinant. How dependent is that person on a particular company, or industry, and what are their working conditions? Like, city bus drivers make pretty good money. But they have to drive a bus, and wear crappy polyester uniforms, and take shit from customers, and let's say they get tired of being a bus driver, what else are they qualified to do? Compare that to a community college professor (who makes about the same amount) - the professor gets an office, gets to more or less wear what they want, they get to be treated with dignity and respect, etc.
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 21:17 (thirteen years ago) link
― sarahel, Friday, September 3, 2010 4:13 PM (2 minutes ago)
What are some examples of the stuff that isn't?
― Donovan Dagnabbit (WmC), Friday, 3 September 2010 21:17 (thirteen years ago) link
let's take milo's example of being worried about money. This seems to be something that is common to people who grew up working class - whereas someone who grew up middle class or higher (barring traumatic event to the family where they had serious problems), has less of a panic about it, because they're used to being comfortable.
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 21:20 (thirteen years ago) link
^^ this actually kinda goes back to the song
yes, that's the "on the surface" shit i'm talking about! bus drivers are more 'low class' than professors. i think in class discussions you have to run the "determinance" the other way -- what does the surfacey class stuff buy you? the bus driver in his shitty uniform and the comm college professor with his office (yeah right, btw), turns out they aren't different
xp
― goole, Friday, 3 September 2010 21:21 (thirteen years ago) link
...that has nothing to do with culture! if you grew up working class, you don't have a safety net. if your parents have $$$, you do!
― horseshoe, Friday, 3 September 2010 21:22 (thirteen years ago) link
sure they are different! the community college professor gets summers off - they could take their family on a long vacation somewhere improving. their work conditions make it easier for them to remain physically healthy. they have education and the trappings of such (e.g. books) to pass down to their children, so they can get a head start on attaining a good class position.
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 21:23 (thirteen years ago) link
that's assuming the parents with $$ are going to give it to you if you need it, horseshoe. and if you've actually experienced poverty or financial struggle, it is highly likely you are going to have a different attitude to it than someone who hasn't!
― sarahel, Friday, 3 September 2010 21:25 (thirteen years ago) link
yeah, i'd echo sarah's question. when we say "working class", we typically mean blue collar workers & menial laborers, probably making enough to get by, many living quite comfortably and able retire early, depending on their line of work. then again, many struggling at the very edge of destitution. it's a range.
when we say "middle class" we mean another range: white collar & professional workers who might make less money than well-paid members of the working class, but often make a good deal more, theses blending into small businessmen and entrepreneurs, marx's petit bourgeois.
and our "upper class" are the wealthiest elite, including political & corporate movers and shakers, old money pseudo-aristocrats - basically people who don't have to worry about money, but do anyway.
note that this rather self-evident set of divisions doesn't have anything to do with cultural class. these are simply the wealth-based tears that incubate the cultural class stuff.
― having taken an actual journalism class (contenderizer), Friday, 3 September 2010 21:26 (thirteen years ago) link
because what poverty means is not having money!
― horseshoe, Friday, 3 September 2010 21:26 (thirteen years ago) link