Depression and what it's really like

Like I said, guilt. But also, I don't think I want him to know. It would just freak him out. (-> see how having a partner doesn't save you from depression. Used to hope that but realized I was wrong.)

That guilt you're feeling is a symptom of the depression. The wonderful thing about the drugs I'm on is not that they get rid of my depression--I still go into bad phases, like the very bad one that I was in for the last few days--but I don't feel like the scum of the earth anymore when I'm depressed.

yeah that. and I feel less caught up in/distracted by my emotions (in most cases).

I wanted to say that the guilt is part of me. But that isn't right. Guess you're right.

Also, man, I have really fucked up sleeping patterns. Awake at 4:30. Then again had a two day migraine attack.

Do you know what triggered it?

Oh yes. No way I can solve it, other than reprogramming myself. Lol. Second time this hit me for the exact same reason.

my doctor's advice for insomnia is just not to fight it and roll with it. if you wake up at 4:30, go walk up a hill and watch the sunrise. or make a really luxurious breakfast. and if you can't sleep at 2 am read some long, distracting NYT articles or get some tedious work done, like balance yr checkbook. seems to work for me, it gives me a huge mental energy boost the next day when i do stuff like this so i can deal with the fucked up sleep pattern. i just went back to work (as a high school teacher) after a long summer of daily beach / tennis / cycling / camping / etc. now i am suddenly up until 2 am every night, getting up at 7:30 every day, not doing anything fun / physical / outdoorsy except taking care of new dog. it's tough to stay positive with this type of thing going on - even a "typical" brain would have issues coping - but i think just staying aware of what's going on and reasoning it out helps a lot.

also here's an anecdote

my roommate is a 24 year old teacher who just finished his first year. he's been working at my school for a while as a coach so we're pretty tight. his mom had a stroke at the beginning of his first year which she recovered from but which also left her acutely depressed. his father has a gambling problem. the bank foreclosed on one of their two houses and is threatening the second because their mortgage. his sister is in her 9th year of an endless communications major which mom keeps shelling out for (including rent) and his brother and father just lost their jobs. so he's moving back home tomorrow because he figures that's close to $1000 he can give back to his parents, but he's real upset about the whole thing - it's been brewing all year since the stroke, and he also had to deal with some crazy shit where his teaching partner had a manic depressive episode that resulted in getting fired midyear (that was tough for the entire staff - as a charter school we're a bit of a high-pressure environment)

so anyway, i urged him at the midpoint of last year to use our medical benefits to see a therapist weekly. and lo and behold, it's been working for him, and now he's planning to bring his parents in with him because weekly family therapy is also covered under our plan. and he has a plan for including his mom in his training routine (he's a triathlete) to get her outside and doing stuff instead of watching TV and crying, and he's going to try to figure out something for dad too.

in short, he's a superhero, because he's doing everything humanly possible to get help and support (emotional and material) for himself and his family.

and last night, he was really unhappy, and i asked him what was wrong, and he said "well, i had to admit to my mom i was seeing a therapist when i asked her to come with me".

so yeah, guilt runs deep, even in the best people, but feeling guilty about telling your partner about your problems makes about as much sense.

also, i understand your fear. my marriage imploded because my ex-wife and i weren't able to talk through our mutual problems with depression. and her interpretation of events is still "that i couldn't deal with her depression". but the truth is that she refused to get help, and i had to leave, because it wasn't healthy for me to be taking sole responsibility for our relationship. one person can't be doing all the work. so sharing the problem is OK, but only if you do it with a plan to get help, and you include your partner in that plan, and show respect for their efforts. if they don't want to help, then you have to wonder what kind of "loved one" they really are ...

and yeah, now i've been seeing a really amazing girl for a year, and i've done all sorts of crazy stuff i've wanted to do my whole life but i've always been scared to, and we started things out by communicating really clearly and frankly about my problems, and what i'm doing to address them and how she can support me in that effort, and how i can respect her support by in turn supporting her.

so i say go ahead and tell your partner.

sorry to get all soapbox-y on you, just try to stay positive, remember that if someone you knew wanted to tell their partner something but felt like they couldn't they'd feel pretty depressed, remember that you **can** reprogram your brain but that you should also accept your own differences, and good luck sorting it out

Fucked up sleeping patterns can become the egg to depression's chicken, if that makes sense. Try to get regular sleep, it's really essential. Back in January, I got on a vicious cycle of insomnia due to bad dreams (night time flashbacks) leading to daytime exhaustion which led to more flashbacks and a fear of sleeping due to nightmares, etc. I know that was just me, but I imagine I'm not completely alone in that.

Oh, exercise is what dragged me out of the pattern -- combination yoga and cardio.

(xposts w/ moonship)

moonship otm, tho

Depression fucking terrifies me, quite honestly. And I deal with PTSD symptoms pretty much daily.

pretty sure this section of my biography will be titled "in which: rent money becomes booze"

"so the rent became whiskey / and then my life became risky" - silver jews

moonship, you're so otm. thanks for all the advice. :-)

there is noreason to be depressed

I wish there was a way that it could be made clearer that this absolutely doesn't matter. Depression isn't necessarily circumstantial (though circumstances can exacerbate or prolong it, obviously). It's the self-reflexive version of "pull yourself together", that it shouldn't be there and you can just look at your shit and say "there's no reason for this". It's there in and of itself, regardless of circumstances.

Nath, I should qualify this as a general observation and absolutely not a criticism of your feelings - I've beaten myself up about it often enough to know that it's a perfectly normal reaction, to try and justify stuff to yourself, and self-blame is the easiest trap in the world to fall into when you aren't seeing straight.

Right. A good percentage of depression is caused by bad brain chemistry.

The thing is, I look from the outside and see the depression. I also realize, even from an outside view, I am really not seeing straight. I see all the symptoms and feel like a walking cliche (half-jokingly): tiredness, disinterest, guilt, playing with suicidal thoughts,... Most of all I just want to sleep and sleep and sleep. I feel like I am trapped somehow. The crux is that this can't be completely helped, it is in my nature. But of course not to this degree. I realize this is not healthy at all.

I literally walk into a room and am convinced I am the stupidest person.

Ailsa, thank you. I agree but then I look at my life and still think I shouldn't be feeling this way. I perfectly nderstand when it's someone else, just not for me. I need a psychoanalyst cause I know where it comes from (in part). lol

Also, after rereading this thread I realize I've been walking around with this "baggage" for a VERY long time. Urgh.

The crux is that this can't be completely helped

But it can be dealt with. Please do (I think you know this).

I will. Promise.

Nathalie, psychoanalysis takes a long time and can be very expensive. There's also the danger of running into someone with quack theories and/or someone on a power trip, so be very careful. (If they start talking about repressed memories, RUN.)

(And when I say run, I mean run--walk out in the middle of the session if you have to. It is trivially easy to make people believe false memories. )

Oh, and please keep us in touch with your progress.

love you, nath! see someone. get help. talk to people. there are people who can help.

Argh, Nath, I tried to webmail you earlier but it didn't work as I was on the bus and my iPhone didn't want to play ball.

You know that I've had a mixed experience with drugs and with therapy. If drugs work for you, that's great. But if they don't - or if they initially help, and then stop working, it's a really bad idea to just stay on them and not try something else. If, six months down the line, you feel as bad as you did before (or worse - because some drugs, especially SSRIs can make people feel worse, long term) then try something else.

I do kind of have a suggestion, based on my own recent experiences, though! I was recently put on beta blockers for my migraines - it is early days, but I have noticed a side effect of massive reductions of anxiety - especially social anxiety.

I mean, I went to a FAP (without drinking) for the first time in a couple of years and stayed for a few hours and it was fine! Under normal circumstances, I would be convinced everyone HAAAATES me, or convinced that no one wants me around, or just feel awkward (your description of feeling "the stupidest person in the room" really chimes with me - though, with me, it was more like "I'm the ugliest person in the room, the the most useless person in the room, the least likeable person in this room" and either have to leave, or more likely just not have got there in the first place without drinking huge amounts first. But it sounds like the same voice.) This, I think is anxiety as much as it is depression.

(At least, I suspect it may be, in mine own circumstances. I'm fine if I have something to do in the situation, but if I'm just there to be social, I feel incapable. This makes me feel isolated. Feeling isolated makes me feel depressed and suicidal and want to sleep all the time.)

Like I said, I was put on beta blockers for migraines (which I know you get as well) but so far they have mainly helped with the anxiety, and because the anxiety has lifted, I'm less depressed. I don't know if this is permanent, or if it's a temporary side effect that will wear off, but it's really helped. It might be something worth mentioning to your doctor, to see if you can switch because I know that you have mentioned both migraines and panic attacks/anxiety before - and this stuff does seem to help with both of those things.

Hope that things improve for you.

Reading this thread as a lurker has been really helping me in the "u r not alone" sweepstakes. I just went off SSRIs for the first time in about 7 years, for no other reason than I'm taking other medications right now, for blood pressure and other things, and wanted to reduce my pharmacopeia by one. It's been a hell of an adjustment and I've been having a really tough time coping. Seems the only things I feel strongly right now are anxiety and anger. :(

OMG, coming off SSRIs was one of the hardest things I've ever done. Reduction and spacing them out is urgent and key. But yeah. Even after the withdrawal wears off, there's this "OMG, EMOTIONS!!! and they're not very nice ones!" like you've been sitting in one position too long and the pins and needles are almost unbearable. But that's what it is. Your brain readjusting. Really hope that things go OK for you, Phil.

Ugh. I did step down, but my last week, and the first full week without them, were fucking miserable. It felt like the worst hangover ever x1,000, 24 hours a day.

Yeah, it's possible to get too used to feeling normal.

No, no, that way lies PAIN. Seriously! I tried about 3 or 4 times to get off them that way, and within a week or two I'd have stabbed my grandmother to go back on them. Reduce, reduce, reduce. Go down 10 mg at a time and spend at least a week or two at each lower level. Once you're on 10mg, start spacing them out longer and longer, like take 2 pills every 3 days, then space them longer and longer. It took me two months to get off them, you have to train your brain to function without them, and to let your brain adjust and make serotonin for itself. It made a lot more sense to me after I read the brain chemistry of the stuff, why it's so hard to come off. Cold turkey is so not a good idea!

x-post

Or just tell your doctor that you want to get off of them (which you should be doing anyway) and have him/her develop a taper-off plan. (Incidently, I took Paxil for a year in the early Nineties, stopped cold turkey, and had none of the symptoms that you are mentioning.)

Brains & drugs: one size does not fit all. Your mileage may vary.

Karen, I am too afraid of betablockers tbh. :-(

Scott, love you, dude. :-)

Betablockers are good, I had them for anxiety a few years ago, and they really helped. Or I should say they were good *for me*, since experiences can obviously vary.

i dunno - i feel like if you feel really numb and are not having emotions while on SSRIs then you are either on the wrong meds or taking too much.

Has anyone here had any experiences with the diabolical 'serotonin syndrome?'

I resumed taking Zoloft last month, after about a year of being off SSRIs, & my pcp advised me to start w/ a slightly higher dosage than I had taken the last time I acclimated to it. On the third or fourth day, I started to feel a bit dizzy and nauseous. I assumed these were textbook side effects (while I hadn't had such a reaction before, I was a bit hung over that day tbh), so I decided to take a nap. I woke up around two hours later from a fever dream, completely drenched in sweat & mess of chills & involuntary leg movements. I was also experiencing delirium to some degree. Thankfully I was able to quickly contact my sister, a licensed pharmacist - she knew immediately what was happening & talked me through it. I was literally getting ready to leave for the emergency room when it started to subside. The effects diminished considerably in the short-term, but it took over 24 hours to them to completely subside.

I cut back my dosage to the same amount I was on when I originally started taking Zoloft & have been fine since, so I'm hoping it was just a freak occurrence. Still it was actually a pretty terrifying thing to undergo, even if only briefly. Would not recommend..

god, that's scary! I haven't experienced that - though I was briefly on Zoloft years ago and it didn't really work for me - for whatever reason, it just made me really angry. I don't really get any weird side effects w/Paxil.

that is odd - Zoloft makes me decidedly not angry (or generally consumed by self-loathing etc.) which means it is doing the trick, I suppose (when it is not to kill me!).

Pillbox: You are lucky to be alive. Very lucky. What other medications do you take? Any herbal medications ?

No experience with serotonin syndrome, but I've read the warnings. That is serious fucking business; I'm glad you got medical attention right away.

Weirdest side effects I've had other than the boring ones like constantly fluctuating weight, tiredness, etc have been the "brain shocks" and others from Lexapro withdrawal. Even while tapering the dosage, I got the zaps and this weird disconnected feeling that's hard to describe (and that I seriously hope I never have to deal with again, not fun).

Prozac is doing OK for me right now, or it seems to be, anyway. I still can't really enjoy anything and have trouble leaving my apartment, but at least I'm not locking myself in the employee bathroom and sobbing for hours at work. Little steps, and all that shit.

I'm really, really happy to hear that, TT.

is there a difference between which SSRIs are generally prescribed for men vs. women? For some reason, I think that Lexapro tends to be prescribed more often to men because it has less severe sexual side effects.

man, fuck SSRIs. i've been managing my depression with them for 12 years now and i've tried going off to no avail for half of that time, never lasted more than six months

scariest part is potentially long-term sexual side effects, ie PE when i'm off and ED when i'm on

current workaround is a maintenance dose of 5-10 mg of paxil (works for me), lots of omega-3 oils (ocean fish and/or legumes everyday), replacing carbs with fresh vegetables, daily exercise, lots of time in the outdoors, mentoring my younger relatives and colleagues, etc

also i've been doing CBT for 12 years, maybe its a natural fit for me because i teach high school and we basically use CBT to manage and motivate our students

our sessions are mostly focused around career and personal goal-setting these days rather than managing anxiety attacks, though i still get those weekly, working on turning that energy into positive motivation

i'm also using herbs but with the awareness that they just complement - not replace - all those other strategies and resources and that i really needed good meds for that initial intervention

so yeah there's a way out of SSRIs but like any other massive lifestyle change it's definitely best approached real gradual and one step at a time

I've gone off ssris three times in the past five years but I always end up back on. Last time was just a few months ago...It wasn't too bad going off them, but then after a couple months, I gave up. I could make it through the day okay without 'em, but I just found myself revisiting old (extremely negative) thought patterns and generally I was mired in misery much of the time. So fuck it.

I find it difficult to accept that I might be on them for the rest of my life, though.

way way xp to Christine

Yeah, the way my sister described it, serotonin syndrome basically has a snowball effect to the degree that a slight imbalance can escalate to such a degree that one could be particularly susceptible to a stroke or cardiac arrest. Thankfully, the effect usually stops short of such extremes, but it is esp. tricky b/c there isn't really a way to correlate the ratio b/w overdose & consequence. In my case, like I said, I was just about to call for a ride to the ER when it scaled back considerably & my heart rate & blood pressure responded in kind. I guess maybe I should keep some kind of sedative at hand, in case it happens again, tho the opinions I've gotten & my own research suggests that it is not something one might be esp. prone to - it is literally sort of a freak occurrence.

I will probably wean myself back off the SSRIs down the road a bit, anyway. I am prone to clinical depression, but I can often keep it in check w/ diet & exercise & other lifestyle factors. Bet every so often I find myself in a trench & just need something to grease the wheel, so to speak. Aside from the one (admittedly awful) incident, the Zoloft has actually helped me considerably when I've needed it.

To answer your question: I am also an ADD basket-case, so I take Adderall (tho I hadn't taken any on the day of the incident). I take Claritin fairly regularly for allergies. In terms of herbal supplements, I take one or two Ginkgo Biloba capsules daily & sometimes I drink a lot of Yerba Mate. Vitamins, minerals & such I try to get from food as much as possible. I drink more alcohol than I should & I occasionally smoke weed. Sorry if all this is TMI or whatever, but if you have any suggestions, I would certainly be interested to hear them. Right now, I am sort of depending on the Zoloft, but Christ I do not want to have any more experiences like ^

I had something really fucking weird happen one time when I was on Zoloft and ate maybe too many hash cookies and that started with a racing heart, shivering, legs twitching uncontrollably. Still, no THC on the wikipedia article for "serotonin syndrome", but, fuck. I thought I was dying and considered calling an ambulance and then I thought "well of course you're just being paranoid, duh, let's not make this any worse than it already is". Then I kept blacking out, like I'd know I'd been doing stuff because I'd be in a different place, but have no memory of the past two hours; repeat.

Anyhow I am probably just looking for something to blame for a moronic teenage overindulgence and attendant freakout, but, fuck.

(I have not really told anyone this before because it sounds so fucking dumb but I am kind of startled that it actually might have been potentially serious. I am OK though! And it probably wasn't that at all! Seeing as it is not a listed combination on the wikipedia and all!)

Man I hope this will not be the last post on this thread as I am sure to regret posting this in the morning, but...

Sounds like you have good reason to be concerned, despite the absence of THC in the Wiki article. No weed/hash paranoia I know of includes uncontrollable leg twitching and blackouts! you weren't drinking alcohol at the time?

Replying partly so you don't regret posting. ;)

imho sounds pretty hard to separate what happened from garden variety paranoia, i've had racing heart and shaking hands too

i had bad experiences whenever I'd miss my lexapro. i'd walk around with my head perfectly still because when i'd turn my head it felt like my brain was turning slower than my eyes and then when i'd stop my brain felt like it was still turning

if anybody's having similar issues i'd recommend just try switching to an equal dose of celexa instead of tapering off ... can't be any worse!