Are you guys at Seattle Weekly really that bad?

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... of my complete disdain of others which barely disguises my growing self-hatred or ego ...

― perry, Sunday, 31 August 2003 17:06 (twenty years ago) link

i think he's aware of that

― dengo matherton (dubplatestyle), Sunday, 31 August 2003 17:09 (twenty years ago) link

i mean, i thought most of ilx was

― dengo matherton (dubplatestyle), Sunday, 31 August 2003 17:10 (twenty years ago) link

but good try

― dengo matherton (dubplatestyle), Sunday, 31 August 2003 17:12 (twenty years ago) link

one of the things I liked about Meltzer's recent writing is precisely that he's so skeptical about today's pop culture. A problem I have sometimes with some critics is that they're not really that critical: they're more about lauding whatever's hip and new, but then they discard it in six months when something else becomes hip and new. As if writing about music shouldn't be about what is "timeless" but rather transitory. I mean, I guess that's fine for other people, but I'm not made of money and I am not that interested in keeping up with music (or much else) in that way. If I want to think about music in a purely consumerist way (which is also pretty depressing), planned obsolescence is not what I look for as a consumer. If I buy a toaster oven, I want it to last (I can't believe I just compared buying music to buying a toaster oven, but can you see my point?).

Then again, I didn't read all of Meltzer's most recent stuff, so maybe it does get depressing when taken as a whole.

― hstencil, Sunday, 31 August 2003 17:32 (twenty years ago) link

how does this reconcile with the other thing that people (but not necessarily you, stence) most often say they want out of music writing: the consumer guide?

― dengo matherton (dubplatestyle), Sunday, 31 August 2003 17:36 (twenty years ago) link

I dunno, jess and that's a very good point that I was thinking of while I was writing that post.

― hstencil, Sunday, 31 August 2003 17:38 (twenty years ago) link

on the one hand - as much as i am suspicious of "longevity" as applied to pop music - i basically agree with you that treating music as a commodity is a veerrrrry slippery slope.

― dengo matherton (dubplatestyle), Sunday, 31 August 2003 17:39 (twenty years ago) link

which is why i suppose the free weekly format is so odd a venue in this sense, since the typical reader isn't the mythical "12 cd person" but probably more like stencil. i guess the main support i can see for the constant slogging through what's new (aside from the fact that i genuinely do lik/love the music i review positively) is that there's just TOO MUCH out there right now, and even the not so picky have to be somewhat picky these days.

― dengo matherton (dubplatestyle), Sunday, 31 August 2003 17:43 (twenty years ago) link

i.e. i used to be somewhat suspicious of the guy who was writing a couple reviews a week (especially for money!) but more and more i realize that for all of the albums i've really liked and wanted other people to hear this year (maybe 10-15 so far) i've only gotten to write about half of them. and that's not even counting the old stuff. reissues are bitch these days.

― dengo matherton (dubplatestyle), Sunday, 31 August 2003 17:45 (twenty years ago) link

"there's just TOO MUCH out there right now"

:( When I read this I thought 'WHAT?!' then realised I don't look hard enough. I only wish I could afford to find lots of music to write about. I've not written in a whole month and it's not because I don't want to or am unable to (ho ho take yr potshots elsewhere) but because I haven't any new music (ie I don't know of any) to write about. I sometimes wish I was Chuck Eddy's mailbox.

― Cozen (Cozen), Sunday, 31 August 2003 17:56 (twenty years ago) link

I thought there were quite a lot of rec shops in glasgow ;)

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Sunday, 31 August 2003 18:02 (twenty years ago) link

yeah I agree in a sense jess, it's like when I get Time Out in the mail and everything seems like an advertisement to BUY BUY BUY even when it's a live show or something. I mean, I hardly ever buy new clothes (esp. now that I'm broke), how am I s'posed to buy every new CD each week? Considering this is coming from a guy who has way too much music as it is...

― hstencil, Sunday, 31 August 2003 18:08 (twenty years ago) link

i.e. i used to be somewhat suspicious of the guy who was writing a couple reviews a week (especially for money!)

Hey! ;-) But I tease.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 31 August 2003 18:14 (twenty years ago) link

(And maybe to follow up a bit on Stence's money point, despite what all of us happy downloading types might do, most people are not inclined to chase down every new (or old) mp3 every waking hour even if they are interested in music, simply because there are many other things out there (ie, the rest of life itself), so the argument that cost isn't an issue when the heavenly jukebox is there falls apart somewhat.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 31 August 2003 18:17 (twenty years ago) link

But Stence, when Meltzer says in the interview quoted above that even if something *did* happen in the '80's or '90's, it wouldn't matter, because "there was enough otherwise" and the idea "that there'd be new rock records" excites him as much as the idea "that there'd be new brands of meatless lasagna"...well, that's something quite beyond skepticism. When you've wiped the battlefield clean, war ends; when you completely discount the possibility of excitement, criticism becomes impossible. (OK, terrible metaphor, I know.)

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Sunday, 31 August 2003 18:19 (twenty years ago) link

I guess Michael my answer to that would be that I like reading Meltzer for the same reasons I like talking to my Great Uncle Hank. Curmudgeonliness isn't a virtue, true, but there's something about it that I find inherently more interesting than reading "Hey novelty record x that I the uber-critic will forget in 6 months is awesome, go buy it now!" Maybe it's just me...

― hstencil, Sunday, 31 August 2003 18:32 (twenty years ago) link

i think we're moving dangerously close to stawman territory here without examples...

― dengo matherton (dubplatestyle), Sunday, 31 August 2003 18:34 (twenty years ago) link

well I could probably give lots of examples of music that gets discussed very enthusiastically on ILM that I couldn't care less about, I'm not sure what that would prove, and I don't want to provoke anyone.

― hstencil, Sunday, 31 August 2003 18:37 (twenty years ago) link

Initially it sounded more like you were bemoaning a particular critical stance, not a kind of music, so I'm a little confused now. (Unless you're saying one typically accompanies another.)

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Sunday, 31 August 2003 18:46 (twenty years ago) link

well in a sense maybe my perception (which is more than likely flawed) is that the critical stance (or lack thereof, as I see it) and the music go hand in hand?

― hstencil, Sunday, 31 August 2003 18:48 (twenty years ago) link

I don't see how yelling NEVER BUY NEVER BUY NEVER BUY is any better than yelling BUY BUY BUY. Aren't people who watch TV all day and bitch about it more annoying than people who just watch TV all day and are fine with it?

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 31 August 2003 18:54 (twenty years ago) link

it's not necessarily a better view, Anthony, but taken solely from the consumerist view above I find it to be more honest. Maybe if I made six figures a year (or got records for free) I'd think it different.

― hstencil, Sunday, 31 August 2003 18:57 (twenty years ago) link

'Honest'?

― Cozen (Cozen), Sunday, 31 August 2003 18:58 (twenty years ago) link

honest in the sense that it's more true to the fact that not everyone can afford everything. I think I explained it upthread.

Also, I think I'd be the first to admit that my own curmudgeonly tendencies color a lot of this bias, too.

― hstencil, Sunday, 31 August 2003 19:00 (twenty years ago) link

DON'T LISTEN DON'T LISTEN DON'T LISTEN vs. LISTEN LISTEN LISTEN

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Sunday, 31 August 2003 19:07 (twenty years ago) link

both are inferior to someone whose enthusiasm (or lack thereof) isn't so predictable.

I'm definitely more likely to read a Meltzer review (unless it's one of those Dada bullshits) than a CMJ review because cynicism leads to better jokes. But a CMJ review never makes me assume talent is being wasted, becuz there's no implication of talent in the first place.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 31 August 2003 19:13 (twenty years ago) link

also: i'm uneasy with the idea that sherburne's worth as a critic (a 'dance critic', a 'rock critic' etc) is somehow suspect (the bit abt 'innate curiousity') if he doesn't feel the need to engage with meltzer/the melzer-continuum (or engage with him as a 'before you begin you need to read...' grandfather of rock crit anyway). even if you disapprove of a 'dance/pop' quasi-ahistoricism in music criticism, enough's happened between meltzer and whatever more immediate music crit lineage you'd feel more comfortable slotting philip into that his (sherburne's) writing can stand on two (valid) legs, both as 'music criticism' and criticism of music criticism.

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Sunday, 31 August 2003 19:29 (twenty years ago) link

i would direct philip to that epic Eno thing by Lester Bangs that I was reading last night and that can be found at perfect sound forever, i believe. I enjoyed the hell out of that. a lot of it is just Eno talking though. which I enjoyed. maybe not everybody would. It's very funny, and personal, and informative and lucid. and memorable actually.

― scott seward, Sunday, 31 August 2003 19:52 (twenty years ago) link

what Mitch said is what I was trying to get across to Diamond above; I apologize for my tone. given the circumstances (not Diamond so much as the stuff this thread is discussing generally) I was a lot more snipish than I needed to be. but two days in the Bumbershoot sun has evened me out something nice.

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 2 September 2003 04:12 (twenty years ago) link

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