most underrated players

He has his hilarious moments at 1B too, but fewer of them I guess. Loved his throw into left field the other day trying to start a double play.

They're pretty comparable in terms of home-run rate, batting average (guessing that Dunn's .251 will move in the direction of Kingman's .236 as time goes on), and strikeouts, but you're right, Dunn's walk advantage is huge.

Here's a far-fetched conspiracy theory I've carried around for years: that not only was Kingman colluded out of the game (even at 38, I have to believe there was somebody who could have used a DH coming off three consecutive 30 HR seasons), but that the desire not to have to deal with the possibility of him reaching 500 HR was part of it. In 1987, that number was still sacrosanct; I recall that there was a feeling at the time among some writers that even Reggie had diminished the number's aura. Kingman was 58 HR and two full seasons away. I realize that it's Dave Kingman we're talking about here, but I've always had this feeling that him reaching 500 HR was just too weird to contemplate, and that that was part of his odd exit.

i've never heard anything about Kingman's exit. why would all the owners get together and decide he's not going to make to to 500 hrs?

As I say, far-fetched. But as I tried to explain above, I don't think the baseball establishment (whatever that means) was looking forward to the prospect of Dave Kingman hitting 500 home runs--not in 1987, when there were probably half as many player with 500 than there will be 5 or 10 years from now. It would have been something of an HOF dilemma at the time; it wouldn't be today. By "odd exit," look at what Kingman had done in his last three years--I can't think of anyone offhand who ever left the game coming off three consecutive 30-HR years. Having said all that, the counter-arguments are obvious: 1) Kingman's contribution to a team beyond the home runs was zilch; 2) he was widely considered to be a jerk; 3) he was 38 years old; 4) the owners were colluding against everybody at the time.

I'm currently in negotiations with Oliver Stone to make a movie about all this (Oliver Stone's Kong), so I'll have more to say at some later date.

lol.

the owners were colluding against everybody at the time

would like to hear more about this.

The owners got dinged for about 100 million towards the end of the '80s:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baseball_collusion

I don't remember all the specifics, but I think their treatment of Raines was exhibit A at the time.

things they could have colluded on:

• Kingman
• Twins winning the world series lolwtf
• construction of the baseball-playing-android known as BA-8000-T (later renamed Darryl Strawberry)
• assassination attempt of Ronald Regan
• making Pete Rose the fall guy for Bowie Kuhn's gambling ring
• Jeff Reardon's beard
• Bart Giamatti's "heart attack"

xpost - oh!!!

Kingman was such an abominable outfielder

http://www.checkoutmycards.com/CardImages/Cards/015/184/01F.jpg
http://waxturds.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/zardoz.jpg

For sure. At that point he was an American Leaguer and full-time DH, though.

I don't mean to go on about Dave Kingman, who has nothing to do with this thread. Last thing: I googled "Kingman + collusion" and found this page, where a bunch of people debate "What exactly was 'wrong' with Dave Kingman?" Quite a bit, apparently...

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?94792-What-exactly-was-quot-wrong-quot-with-Dave-Kingman-anyway&daysprune=365

Also: read that Wikipedia account of collusion, and it was 300 million the owners had to pay out, not 100 million.

Here's something a little more on-topic, a question posted on Bill James's site today:

Bill, in your book "Whatever Happened To The Hall of Fame?" you discuss how you felt Dwight Evans was one of the most underrated players in baseball history. Do you currently still feel this way and what do you feel his chances are of EVER being voted in through the Veterans Committee in which he becomes eligible in 2012?
Asked by: Patrick Languzzi
Answered: August 22, 2010

I still think that Dewey was one of the most underrated players of all time. I would predict that, over time, more evidence will emerge to demonstrate his value, and that there will be wider understanding of this. Whether that will be enough to carry him into Cooperstown...who knows. What is he, now...58? 58 and in great shape; he's got 30 years to work on it, anyway.

It was lost in the shuffle of Fisk's home run, but he made probably the greatest catch I've ever seen in Game 6 of the '75 Series.

yeah people like to point out that if you take defense and OBP into account properly, Jim Rice was only the 3rd best outfielder on the 70s sox after Dewey and Lynn

rice's obp was slightly better than evans' during the 70s, it was the second half of his career when dewey put up better numbers while rice was on the decline

Kingman hit .210/.255/.431 at age 37 in his last season (as a DH). you don't need sabermetrics to conclude that's not a guy you want to sign for the next year.

yeah rice had a huge peak but dewey and lynn had more career value, is the point. baseball writers obviously tend to value guys who had a few mvp-level years and lots of mediocre ones over guys who were good to great every year but never had the monster season.

guys who were good to great every year but never had the monster season

I don't think that describes Lynn--wasn't he the exact opposite? He was brilliant in '75 and '79, otherwise he was either injured or, through most of the '80s, just treading water. I guess you could make a case that his career stats are the equal of Rice's (.298/.352/.502 for Rice, .280/.360/.484 for Lynn, with Lynn playing most of his career somewhere other than Fenway), but Rice intuitively feels much more like a Hall of Famer to me. I know that's not very scientific. I think Evans (.272/.370/.470, plus eight Gold Gloves) was, on balance, a better player than both of them.

yeah i agree w/ all that

It's a bit of a stretch to put Adam Dunn down at Dave Kingman's level. Dunn's not great, but as a hitter his career OPS is closer to Jim Thome than Kong (.904 Dunn, .961 Thome, .780 Kingman). Dunn hasn't played on any good teams which probably underrates him a bit and the guy is so big (6-7 probably close to 300 pounds) he looks really odd and very ungraceful on the field. I think Dunn would be a good fit for an AL club and it never really made sense why the Angels never looked him up, considering they needed power. I'd think the White Sox or the Rangers might be where he ends up if he leaves the Nationals. The old owner of the Rangers tried to trade for him a couple of times when Dunn was in Cincy. I think a question on Dunn is whether he will hit the wall like Richie Sexton did, who is probably one player that is somewhat similar to Dunn (although he didn't draw as many walks). Sexton was pretty consistently decent, losing only one season to injury and he hit age 32 and he was finished. Don't know if this will be the fate of the Big Donkey or not, but it could be.

I will always be a fan of Dunn & JD Drew, if only because they're hated by the right people.

Also, Adam Dunn doesn't like baseball.

And he clogs the bases!

(His career R/162 is six higher than that of Juan Pierre, but don't tell anyone.)

I will always be a fan of Dunn & JD Drew, if only because they're hated by the right people.

Totally agree with this.

Speaking of underrated -- and I know I'm a total Braves homer, but still -- Tim Hudson is kind of amazing to watch this year, for folks who have Extra Innings or the internet or whatnot.

He's pitching tonight for what it's worth. I'm sure I just jinxed him.

it never really made sense why the Angels never looked him up, considering they needed power.

i thought this was because dunn made it clear he had no interest in being a dh

William, you did jinx him :( (I mean :) obviously but that seems cruel)

I was regretting that post as soon as I made it! Still the larger point of Hudson-is-great-this-year stands. Also, he's grown a full beard and he and Tommy Hanson look like they could be twins. For some reason that is very o_O to me.

I try to catch at least an inning whenever Hudson pitches. Ditto Jurrjens and Hanson.

Maybe Hudson is under the radar this year - but he was certainly a name when he was part of the that great starting 3-some in Oakland.

Is it fair to say Michael Young's underrated?

It depends how you're rating him. Are you rating him as a $16mil/year player, which is what he makes this year and the next two years? Then he's overrated.

He has been consistently good for his entire career. He's never had an OPS over .900, but he's always in the .750-.900 range. He's played reasonably well at every infield position. Not rangey, but a good catch and throw guy.

I wasn't thinking about salary (something I'm generally oblivious to--had no idea he made that much); more that he seems underpublicized for a guy as consistent as he's been since 2003. Baseball Reference even has him over 100 points on their (James's) HOF Monitor, putting him into the "likely" category. That's way too charitable, but he may be in the midst of his best season yet, and another five or six solid years, who knows.

actually agree w/ clemenza on this one

I pondered the significance of that "actually" for a few minutes...I'm okay with it!

Andrew McCutchen had to make the All-Star team this year as an injury sub. That's insane.

High Heat Stats has been unrolling their lists of "Under-appreciated Players of the '80s/'90s" the past week or so. The full lists:

'90s

1. Kevin Appier
2. Kenny Lofton
3. Tony Phillips
4. Steve Reed
5. Eric Plunk
6. Shane Mack
7. Mike Jackson
8. John Valentin
9. Dave Clark
10. Jose Rijo

'80s

1. Dwayne Murphy
2. Dave Stieb
3. Bill Doran
4. Danny Darwin
5. Von Hayes
6. Mario Soto
7. Mark Eichhorn
8. Gary Redus
9. Jim Clancy
10. Dwight Evans

There wasn't one specific methodology used, so to a degree the lists are subjective, but they're based on a mix of the usual sabermetric benchmarks. There are already three Jays pitchers on the '80s list, but I might add a fourth: Tom Henke. I always felt he was underpublicized in comparison to the other name closers of the day.

E.g.: in a decade where Mark Davis and Steve Bedrosian won Cy Youngs, Henke didn't receive a single Cy Young vote in his entire career; he got five points in the '85 MVP vote.

i always thought Key was dominated by the shadow of Stieb - but that could have just been up here.

i was eyeballing jason thompson's stats a couple nights ago (that baseball reference rabbithole!) and the dude wasn't a HOFer but he had some outstanding seasons w/detroit and pittsburgh (exhibits a and b re: his underratedness.)

arguments?

http://mlb.sbnation.com/2012/7/17/3163647/most-underrated-players-in-baseball-mlb

Beltre for sure. Even putting aside the 57 WAR at age 33, he's got a decent shot at 500 HR/3,000 hits.

I have admired Choo since I saw him hit an IPHR at Tacoma (2006?).

Mark Buehrle might be the most underrated pitcher in the game. He's seventh in WAR among active pitchers (which also underrates him somewhat, since he's only five WAR out of second place), won a WS with a team in a large market, has been arguably the best fielding pitcher in the game for a while, never gets hurt, throws 200+ IP every year, never has a bad season ... and he's only 33, so it's not hard to see him finishing with 250+ wins and 70+ WAR. Those would be HOF worthy numbers, but he's never really been great, just really good nearly every year, which probably kills his chances. Although he still might turn into the poster boy for being underrated for being v. good for a long time, like Mike Mussina did.

Is Torii Hunter underrated or overrated? He's going to finish his career with 2000+ hits, 300+ HR, nine gold gloves, and a career WAR between 40-50 (accumulated very steadily--this year should make 12 straight years where he was almost between 3.0-5.0 every year). On the other hand, he makes almost $20 million a year, has made All-Star teams and gotten MVP support, and carries a just-okay lifetime OPS of .800.

i sorta bristle at the notion of choo being most underrated... otherwise, pretty good list

Hunter is one of those who stayed 'underrated' too long

Defensive stats are just a jumble of numbers to me, so I wasn't sure if Hunter was the kind of player who earned his first few gold gloves, then won a few on reputation.

Neyer on Buehrle:

http://mlb.sbnation.com/2012/7/18/3165852/mark-buehrle-miami-marlins-pitches-changeups