And BTW, I think it's U&K to rely on postseason numbers to make a HOF case for a closer. A closer's job is a lot more important in the postseason (not just the importance of the games, but the fact that closers need to pitch a higher %age of their team's innings compared with the regular season).
― NoTimeBeforeTime, Friday, 20 August 2010 11:23 (nine years ago) link
most underrated '70s/80s player: Bobby Grich
― kind of shrill and very self-righteous (Dr Morbius), Friday, 20 August 2010 11:24 (nine years ago) link
Ken Singleton's also name gets mentioned for the same time period
― NoTimeBeforeTime, Friday, 20 August 2010 13:00 (nine years ago) link
I agree that a closer's role is magnified in the postseason (everyone's is, to a degree), but I just have a hard time giving great weight to an 11-inning sample in a guy's HOF resume. I made the same point with regards to Dawson on another thread. And with Wagner, it comes down to about half of those 11.2 innings; in 5.2 of them, he gave up 11 runs. So you're looking at 5.2 innings in a 16-year career.
― clemenza, Friday, 20 August 2010 13:16 (nine years ago) link
Let me put it another way: I'm a lot more in favour of using a great post-season career to make a case for somebody (again, based on a decent sample) than I am the reverse.
― clemenza, Friday, 20 August 2010 13:19 (nine years ago) link
Well, if you take WAR as gospel, the two guys who jump out at me are Scott Rolen and Andruw Jones. Jones was a big deal five years ago, but you don't hear much about him anymore; Rolen bounces around from team to team. Yet they're right there with a bunch of Hall of Famers, and ahead of much more publicized players like Helton, Beltran, Damon, etc.
both these guys played all-time-great defense at their positions, especially jones, which is why their numbers are so high
― ciderpress, Friday, 20 August 2010 13:23 (nine years ago) link
Brian Roberts seemed hugely underrated for a long time
― kind of shrill and very self-righteous (Dr Morbius), Friday, 20 August 2010 13:34 (nine years ago) link
That's what happens when you're competing with David Eckstein!
― Andy K, Friday, 20 August 2010 13:48 (nine years ago) link
In the age of WAR and VORP and all that stuff, I wonder if the whole idea of an underrated baseball player is becoming antiquated. I can't see players flying under the radar anymore to the degree they might have 30 years ago. I suppose "underpublicized" will always be a fact of life, depending upon where you play, but underrated, I'm not so sure.
― clemenza, Friday, 20 August 2010 13:54 (nine years ago) link
I agree that a closer's role is magnified in the postseason (everyone's is, to a degree)
Not really though ... I think the average closer pitches about 5% of his team's innings in the regular season. In the playoffs it's 10-11%. No other type of player gets twice as much PT in the playoffs.
For the most part I agree, but the outcome of a season hinges a lot more on what the closer does. The team is hurt a lot more by a blown save than by a star hitter going 0-4. And your math on Wagner's career is seriously shady ... he was brutal in more than half of his postseason appearances, that's a huge failure rate for a closer. You can't just focus on the other appearances when he didn't suck, any more than you can say that, I don't know, if you eliminate Ryan Howard's strikeouts then he'd be a .420 hitter.
― NoTimeBeforeTime, Friday, 20 August 2010 14:14 (nine years ago) link
Well, we disagree. I don't think I'm misrepresenting his numbers, though. In 5.2 of his 11.1 postseason innings--exactly half--Wagner gave up 4 hits, 0 walks, 2 earned runs, struck out 8, saved 3, and had an E.R.A. of 3.18. Not spectactular, but pretty solid. In the other 5.2 innings, he was an absolute nightmare: 16 hits, 2 walks, 5 strikeouts, 11 earned runs, no saves, and an E.R.A. of 17.47. It's not an exact parallel, because there's no postseason in the education business, but when I retire in about 12 years, I hope I'm not judged by my five worst days as a teacher--I'd have been out of a job long ago.
― clemenza, Friday, 20 August 2010 14:34 (nine years ago) link
in terms of quantified, context-neutral baseball value you might be right, but there's plenty of other ways to 'rate' a player imo
― ciderpress, Friday, 20 August 2010 14:50 (nine years ago) link
xpost it's not just his five worst days, it's *half* of his postseason record. You can't pick and choose the half that happens to support your case, the bad half counted just as much.
And ten appearances aren't a huge sample size, but it's spread over a number of years. He had a bad year every year!
― NoTimeBeforeTime, Friday, 20 August 2010 15:20 (nine years ago) link
Ciderpress: We're probably coming from the same place here. I'm not especially hung up on WAR/VORP; I'm a stats guy, but more traditional OBP/SA stuff. (Hah--now OBP and SA are "traditional.") And I hope you're right; not being able to argue about over/underrated players would be a big loss to what it means to be a fan. But I think it's much more unlikely that a Bobby Grich would happen today. Anyone who keeps reasonably well informed would know all about him; Neyer and Posnanski and Baseball Prospectus would make sure of that. More casual fans would miss him, so maybe you're right--maybe things haven't changed that much after all. (I've gotta be honest: I'm looking at Grich's lifetime stats, and Bill James and Morbius notwithstanding, I'm not clear on why Bobby Grich was so underrated. He was excellent in '79 and '81. The rest of time, agreeing that he drew a lot of walks for a second baseman, I'm not seeing what makes him so noteworthy--not as a hitter, anyway.)
NoTime: I've conceded that Wagner was brutal for half his postseason innings. No argument whatsoever. I just don't see that that's reason to keep him out of the Hall of Fame--not if you believe he deserves to be there based on his in-season play. (If you don't, then sure, the postseason becomes one more argument against him.) When Winfield was up for induction, I don't think the voters gave much weight to his postseason performance, which basically amounted to one huge hit in the '92 Series and not a whole lot else.
― clemenza, Friday, 20 August 2010 15:35 (nine years ago) link
i don't see any reason to keep wagner out of the hall of fame based on 11 innings out of almost 900 pitched. whether his entire peformance record is good enough is a separate question, but that's the one that should be discussed.
― ciderpress, Friday, 20 August 2010 15:48 (nine years ago) link
Just to be totally honest, and argue against myself, one of the reasons Wagner's IP total is so low for the postseason is that half the time, he couldn't get anybody out. You've got to get some people out to pile up innings. Apparently, they just kept running guys up to the plate who'd hit safely.
― clemenza, Friday, 20 August 2010 15:52 (nine years ago) link
First, I'll reiterate that Wagner probably doesn't have much chance of getting voted in because he didn't pitch for "winning" teams (fairly or unfairly). In the three-tiered playoff system, guys play a lot more postseason games than they used to, so postseason performance is going to figure more strongly into HOF voting (which to me seems fair). Also, nobody really has any idea what the HOF standard is for closers because their role is constantly changing. But it's safe to say that everyone from this era will measured against Rivera and Hoffman, and Wagner looks set to be the Tim Raines to their Rickey Henderson.
I also think that there will always be underrated players ... Neyer and Posnanski and BP are a really small piece of the pie. Chase Utley hit five homers in last year's WS and was STILL underrated -- everyone talked about ARod becoming a "true Yankee" and the "Yankee Four" and Pedro and by the last game, Matsui.
― NoTimeBeforeTime, Friday, 20 August 2010 16:06 (nine years ago) link
Cart way before horse: a Braves WS win this year would cinch Wagner for the HoF, y/n?
― My totem animal is a hamburger. (WmC), Friday, 20 August 2010 16:09 (nine years ago) link
The fate of bordlerline cases like Wagner may be affected by how the whole steroids issue resolves itself with regards to the HOF. If, as seems to be the case right now, PED-associated players are locked out, then I think the Wagners and Damons and Smoltzes will inevitably benefit. Enough to push some of them over the line, I don't know.
― clemenza, Friday, 20 August 2010 16:30 (nine years ago) link
not necessarily, at all
― kind of shrill and very self-righteous (Dr Morbius), Friday, 20 August 2010 16:31 (nine years ago) link
Not necessarily, no. As a practical matter, though, I think that keeping PEDs out will do two things: one, it will free up space, and I think the voters will instinctively want to fill that space; and two, psychologically, "clean" players may start to be over-valued. You've indicated this yourself, right, in connection to the deification of Griffey?
― clemenza, Friday, 20 August 2010 16:41 (nine years ago) link
Oops--you were responding to WmC!
― clemenza, Friday, 20 August 2010 16:43 (nine years ago) link
can't wait until the 2012 HoF voting when the writers inevitably lock out the 2nd best hitter of all time and the 2nd best pitcher of all time by WAR
― ciderpress, Friday, 20 August 2010 16:46 (nine years ago) link
the upcoming ballots are pretty loaded though so unless they start letting in more than 2-3 guys a year i think a lot of the borderline cases are gonna slip away
― ciderpress, Friday, 20 August 2010 16:48 (nine years ago) link
for '13 you've got biggio, bonds, clemens, piazza, and sosa. two of them will get in right away, right? or maybe only one?
― ('_') (omar little), Friday, 20 August 2010 16:50 (nine years ago) link
I think there'll be four tiers: 1) the Bonds/Clemens/A-Rod tier, where the writers (grudgingly) decide they were HOF-clear pre-PED and put them in; 2) the McGwire/Palmeiro/Ramirez tier, the guys who are punished; 3) the Bagwell/I-Rod/Thome tier, players who've never been named and who never failed a test but who seem suspicious anyway (this is a tier completely of my own making; I have doubts about all three)--not sure what happens with them; 4) everybody else.
― clemenza, Friday, 20 August 2010 16:53 (nine years ago) link
i think Wagner's HOF case will be made in the coming years. if he can move up on the all time saves list (he's - um, 6th right now?) he could make it in as long as he stays productive for a few more years. the only person ahead of him still pitching well is Rivera (as Hoff seems to have lost it this year).
― oreo speed wiggum (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Friday, 20 August 2010 16:54 (nine years ago) link
somebody wrote a column abt this today, will link later
― kind of shrill and very self-righteous (Dr Morbius), Friday, 20 August 2010 17:01 (nine years ago) link
back to the thread topic, i think the prototype 'underrated players' in terms of WAR are the guys who are consistently worth 3-5 WAR each year but aren't flashy enough to build a reputation as great players
david dejesus and nick markakis are the first two that come to mind
― ciderpress, Friday, 20 August 2010 17:13 (nine years ago) link
Markakis has slid a fair amount this year tho.
― oreo speed wiggum (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Friday, 20 August 2010 17:23 (nine years ago) link
i think Wagner's HOF case will be made in the coming years. if he can move up on the all time saves list (he's - um, 6th right now?) he could make it in as long as he stays productive for a few more years.
Doesn't Wagner plan to retire at the end of the year? We could have seen Wagner, Cox, and Chipper making one last run at a WS and retiring together at the end of the year, that's the kind of storyline that sportswriters love, and it could have turned into a huge deal that would cement reputations (it still might happen, sans Chipper). WmC's question is interesting, because it could be like Mussina winning 20 games in his final year, where you've got an underrated guy and people think he needs to achieve a fairly meaningless milestone to make or break his HOF chances.
I think the answer is "no" ... there's not much talk about Wagner's possible retirement and the Padres have stolen the Braves' buzz.
― NoTimeBeforeTime, Friday, 20 August 2010 21:20 (nine years ago) link
there mustn't be because i never heard about his impending retirement!
― oreo speed wiggum (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Friday, 20 August 2010 21:25 (nine years ago) link
Yeah, he said in April that this will absolutely be his last season. I believe I remember the Braves booth guys talking about his reasons -- apparently the nerves stress of being a closer has never gotten easier for him, and he just doesn't want to deal with the pressure of living or dying by the 9th inning any more after this year.
― My totem animal is a hamburger. (WmC), Friday, 20 August 2010 21:32 (nine years ago) link
I'm not finding a lot of corroboration for that on the web, but I swear that's what Joe Simpson said one night, and he's not at all a loose-lipped gossipy type.
― My totem animal is a hamburger. (WmC), Friday, 20 August 2010 21:37 (nine years ago) link
Tim Salmon had to have one of the best careers and never make an All Star game.
Ron Cey was pretty solid, but the 70s-80s was probably one of the most deep periods for really good third basemen. I know Bill James had him along with Bobby Grich and Brian Downing as being pretty under-rated players for their period either in that decade recap or in their player profile.
I don't know if Billy Wagner is a Hall of Famer, but good lord when that dude was young and in his prime with the Astros, the guys' fast ball was insane. He would be over or near 100 mph every pitch.
The guy that the injuries took away his chance at greatness that was perhaps the most freakishly amazing athlete in baseball I saw play was Eric Davis. The guy was built like a sprinter and his athletic combination of power and speed was over the top. His frame couldn't take the punishment, but I almost still would say the guy was still one of the best all around players I watched and followed on a regular basis.
Lance Parrish and Ted Simmons are both pretty underappreciated catchers. They both were good catchers for a long time.
― earlnash, Friday, 20 August 2010 22:42 (nine years ago) link
In an era of big offense, I never thought Salmon was great, but I agree that it's a major surprise he never made even one All-Star team. I looked at his splits on BaseballReference.com, and he even hit 173 of his 299 career homers in the first half (he hit for a higher average in the second half). I'm guessing he had a much better career than a few one-season flashes and cellar-dweller picks that got into All-Star games ahead of him.
I also think that there will always be underrated players ... Neyer and Posnanski and BP are a really small piece of the pie. Chase Utley hit five homers in last year's WS and was STILL underrated -- everyone talked about ARod becoming a "true Yankee" and the "Yankee Four" and Pedro and by the last game, Matsui.
Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but I'm not sure that's the same as being underrated. The media's always going to focus on easy-to-understand soap-opera stuff--in the case of A-Rod and Martinez, variations of the "big comeback" story. But in general, I think there's a greater awareness today of Utley's stature as one of the best all-around players in baseball than there would have been had he played in the '60s or '70s. Neyer and the rest are a small piece, I agree, but I think their stuff filters down through the media in a way that it didn't when James was writing about, say, how underrated Jose Cruz was in the early '80s. I mention Joe Rudi a lot, but I first started watching baseball in the early '70s, he was the media's poster-boy for underrated players. I look at his stats today, and the only explanation I can come up with is that he nudged his batting average over .300 a couple of times. I don't think writers miss the mark by that much today; if a player's legitimately underrated by the public at large, before long, I think the word gets out.
― clemenza, Saturday, 21 August 2010 00:34 (nine years ago) link
So maybe what I'm saying is that it's much harder to stay underrated today.
― clemenza, Saturday, 21 August 2010 00:47 (nine years ago) link
i would agree with that.
― oreo speed wiggum (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Saturday, 21 August 2010 04:29 (nine years ago) link
also pondering a guy like Paul Konerko
Me too. He's pulling a Fred McGriff in reverse. For the first few years of his career, McGriff's 35 homers a year were meaningful enough that he was considered one of the very best hitters in baseball; after he moved over to the NL, his power dipped a bit, everyone else surged past him, and he fell off the radar. Konerko averaged about 30 homers a year for his first decade with the White Sox, and while he did get some MVP votes for three of those years, I don't think he got a whole lot of attention at a time when there were a number of people hitting many more home runs. (I know I didn't take him very seriously myself.) Now he's having his best all-around year ever, the league has pulled back in his direction, and he's sitting on 350 home runs at age 34. It's a longshot, but I don't think you can rule him out for the HOF if he stays healthy for another five or six years and continues to play well.
― clemenza, Saturday, 21 August 2010 14:43 (nine years ago) link
Konerko's having his best season at age-34, and unless he has another four or five career years from ages 35-39, he's not getting anywhere near the HOF. McGriff was a legit offensive force during his career (he had a great OPS+ nearly every year) and was considered just a step below elite status by the writers (he was never the best player in his league, rarely was even in the top five, but had six top-ten MVP finishes, even if he never finished higher than sixth. That's a borderline HOFer. He's basically a poor man's Jim Thome, and even JIM THOM isn't considered a lock for the HOF (although he should be).
Konerko is nowhere near those numbers -- 16 points below McGriff in OPS+, and just one top ten MVP finish (6th, in 2005).
― NoTimeBeforeTime, Saturday, 21 August 2010 16:54 (nine years ago) link
Just to clarify: if Thome had retired at the end of last year, then he'd be in danger of falling off the radar for the HOF ... he'd probably get in eventually, but not on the first ballot. His era is stacked with guys with similar numbers, especially first basemen, and like McGriff, he was never considered to be one of the league's very best hitters (even though he was, and had more great seasons than just about any of his contemporaries, e.g. McGwire, Raffy, Giambi, Delgado (not saying that all these guys are HOFers, just that they usually got more attention and respect than Thome did).
Actually, Thome was prob underrated and deserves a mention on this thread. But of course if he keeps hitting for a couple more years and cracks 600 homers then it could be a different story.
― NoTimeBeforeTime, Saturday, 21 August 2010 17:01 (nine years ago) link
Like I say, a longshot. I'd put Konerko at about 5% right now. But if he continues on as he is this year for another five years--highly unlikely--I still think he'd have about an even chance at the HOF. Not first ballot by any means, but somewhere down the road. Thome is definitely underrated with regards to his contemporaries. If, that is, he's clean.
― clemenza, Saturday, 21 August 2010 17:35 (nine years ago) link
you know what i always love is how columns discussing certain candidates' lack of HOF qualifications tend to invariably mention a low number of all-star game appearances and low placements on MVP/cy young ballots, which is always funny to me considering how fundamentally stupid the voters are. like thome's lack of top 5 mvp placements (save one season), missing in '97 because voters decided that randy myers was a worthy MVP candidate (#4 to thome's #6), seeing his own teammate juan gonzalez place a couple spots ahead of him in '01 despite thome's insane season, and in his truly all-time great season of '02 placing behind not only behind tejada, a-rod, and giambi, but also soriano, garret anderson, and torii hunter.
― ('_') (omar little), Saturday, 21 August 2010 17:44 (nine years ago) link
the AS game argument is funny too. it's not like a higher number of AS games helps other guys that much. i feel like dave stieb and steve rogers were starting pitchers in the game facing off against each other like 32 times.
― ('_') (omar little), Saturday, 21 August 2010 17:46 (nine years ago) link
One possible difference in how we view this: I'm not ready to write off 500 HR as a benchmark. For most of the players associated with PEDs, yeah, the 500 HR doesn't seem to mean much when they come up for HOF voting--not yet, anyway. But if you eliminate all of them, there aren't as many players crossing the line as everyone seems to think. Bagwell and McGriff fell short, Chipper's not looking good, and Delgado's still very iffy. PED players who've made it: Bonds, Sosa, A-Rod, McGwire, Palmeiro, Ramirez, and Sheffield. If you put them aside for a second, the only players who've exceeded 500 HRs since Eddie Murray did it are Thomas, Thome, and Griffey, and, other than Pujols, I don't see any other sure things on the horizon. So if Konerko were to exceed 500 HRs, I still think that counts for a lot. There's a growing perception out there that 500 HR has lost its exclusivity. To me, it depends on whether or not you count the PED guys.
― clemenza, Saturday, 21 August 2010 17:53 (nine years ago) link
I really like Bill James' Keltner Test for the HOF, so ASG and MVP voting do help in singling out the guys who were considered the best players of their day. And besides freakish years like 2002 and 1999 (which I won't try to defend), in most years you can't reasonably argue that Thome was one of the top five players in the league. In 2001, for instance, you had Giambi putting up superior numbers in every category (while playing the same position), two insane seasons by second basemen (Alomar and Boone), a shortstop hitting 52 HR (A-Rod) -- all four of those guys were clearly better than Thome that year. In 1997 he finished sixth (yeah, behind Randy Myers, which was a joke), but he also finished ahead of Nomar, Edgar, Clemens, and Johnson, who all had better years, and he deservedly finished behind Griffey and Thomas. So maybe he was the seventh best player in the AL that year. And so on.
― NoTimeBeforeTime, Saturday, 21 August 2010 18:47 (nine years ago) link
Konerko doesn't even seem in the HOF discussion. more like the Hall of the Very Good, like Rusty Staub or Al Oliver (if PK lasts that long).
Then again Staub and Oliver were both better than Jim fuckin' Rice.
― kind of shrill and very self-righteous (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 21 August 2010 19:30 (nine years ago) link
For what it's worth, neither Wagner nor Konerko was even on my own HOF radar a week ago; it's only their getting mentioned on this thread, and then taking a closer look at their career boxes, that made me realize how quietly they've been piling up some numbers, and that the HOF wasn't completely out of the question one day. That's all--Konerko, especially, would still have to do a lot in the next five years. But if there's a point where you can say of a player that it's 100% sure he's not going into the HOF, I don't think either one of them has yet reached that point.
The Hall of the Very Surly: Steve Carlton, Dave Kingman, Albert Belle.The Hall of the Very Profane: Hal McCrae.The Hall of the Very Unkempt: John Kruk.
― clemenza, Saturday, 21 August 2010 21:02 (nine years ago) link
thome is pretty much the kind of dude who clearly deserves to get into the HOF, which is basically what i'm saying. he's not pujols or bonds, but he's had exactly one season that's been anything less than really good, and that was due to an injury. i think he gets undervalued b/c of the batting average and the Ks and probably for defense (i think his rep on that was poor? i don't remember...) but w/r/t the sabermetric stats he's had a pretty insane career. not like some konerko level of piling up solid numbers, but in and out season after season being one of the top hitters in the game (if never actually *the* top.)
― ('_') (omar little), Saturday, 21 August 2010 21:33 (nine years ago) link
adam dunn's probably gonna reach 500 HR unless he falls of a cliff. he'd be the most interesting test case for that benchmark because he's not a PED case but has never been considered a great player by media
― ciderpress, Saturday, 21 August 2010 21:38 (nine years ago) link
alex gordon is the kind of player who would deserve to get into the HOF if he plays like he has for another ten years.
― LIKE If you are against racism (omar little), Wednesday, 20 August 2014 20:06 (five years ago) link
i'm starting to think Alex Gordon has a slim chance at the MVP, and is def. getting nominated.
― Van Horn Street, Wednesday, 20 August 2014 20:44 (five years ago) link
naaah, we're not there yet
I also don't think he's in Trout's class (no one is)
― son of a lewd monk (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 20 August 2014 20:53 (five years ago) link
Brisbee pt 2
― son of a lewd monk (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 20 August 2014 20:54 (five years ago) link
another year under the radar i might put Rendon on that list
― son of a lewd monk (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 20 August 2014 20:55 (five years ago) link
yeesh i'm not sure anyone's missed the klubes train this year, which is his first full year as a good baseball pitcher
gordon should've been somewhere
― linda cardellini (zachlyon), Wednesday, 20 August 2014 22:06 (five years ago) link
Hiroki Kuroda deserves a prize for being underrated even though he's played with the Yankees and Dodgers for his entire career.
― NoTimeBeforeTime, Wednesday, 20 August 2014 22:35 (five years ago) link
ya, i have no idea how he pulled that off.
― Porto for Pyros (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Thursday, 21 August 2014 01:15 (five years ago) link
Ian Kinsler. I was looking at this career box the other day:
-- his career WAR is 46.7 after his age-33 season (didn't get started till he was 24); his per-season WAR is 4.7, per-650 PA 5.4-- only twice (1.9, 2.4) in 10 seasons has he been under 4.0-- 184 HR, may end up in the 250 range-- 100+ runs five times, between 70-90 RBI seven times-- excellent defense, pretty good speed-- MVP votes four out of 10 seasons-- JAWS has him as the 23rd best second baseman ever
Real longshot, but--coming off WARs of 5.0/5.7/6.0--four or five more seasons like that and he'd be in the HOF gray area. Is he generally regarded as one of the most underrated players in the game? He doesn't show up in this thread.
― clemenza, Thursday, 10 December 2015 01:36 (four years ago) link
^^^ian kinsler is i think turning into the new Beltre, as far as consistency and that creeping possibility of a good HOF case. not sure he can have another four or five seasons like his last few but if he does he'll be approaching a career WAR of 80. that's probably a real stretch, though.
― nomar, Wednesday, 18 January 2017 18:15 (two years ago) link
he'll probably pass jeff 'most homers by a second baseman' kent in WAR this year but i think kinsler will be hurt by a) never getting anywhere near an MVP b) maybe never being the best hitter on his own team
― mookieproof, Wednesday, 18 January 2017 18:31 (two years ago) link
Similar Batters Hanley Ramirez (910)Chase Utley (910)Brandon Phillips (903)Travis Fryman (888)Rich Aurilia (888)Bret Boone (884)Bobby Grich (879)Jhonny Peralta (875)Joe Gordon (875) *Dustin Pedroia (868)
― Andy K, Wednesday, 18 January 2017 19:30 (two years ago) link
As I wrote on some other thread, I think Adrian Gonzalez's home parks (Dodgers and Padres for the bulk of his career) have ensured that he'll never get any HOF consideration. He's basically the opposite of Troy Tulowitzki:
(close to the same number of games)
Home: .280/.354/.459/.813, 127 HR, 513 RBIAway: .300/.369/.524/.893, 181 HR, 633 RBI
If you simply double his road stats, he still falls short. But if you take his road stats and add them onto a favorable home park(s), who knows.
― clemenza, Thursday, 19 January 2017 01:50 (two years ago) link
until writers learn to look beyond unadjusted dinosaur slash stats -- hey, there are already some! it's not 1997! wowza!
― Supercreditor (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 19 January 2017 01:57 (two years ago) link
was surprised to not see Beltre on the above list, but that list wasn't including the 2010. since the beginning of that season, he's accumulated 46.2 WAR and passed everyone on that list except Pujols and A-Rod. also 17 of those guys have retired (except Beltre, Pujols, and Suzuki.) the current active top 20:
1. Albert Pujols (17, 37) 100.2 R2. Adrian Beltre (20, 38) 90.7 R3. Carlos Beltran (20, 40) 70.4 B4. Miguel Cabrera (15, 34) 69.7 R5. Chase Utley (15, 38) 64.8 L6. Robinson Cano (13, 34) 64.3 L7. Ichiro Suzuki (17, 43) 59.2 L8. Ian Kinsler (12, 35) 54.8 R9. Mike Trout (7, 25) 51.9 R10. Joe Mauer (14, 34) 51.1 L11. Dustin Pedroia (12, 33) 51.0 R12. Joey Votto (11, 33) 50.3 L13. David Wright (13, 34) 49.9 R14. Evan Longoria (10, 31) 48.5 R15. Matt Holliday (14, 37) 45.6 R16. Curtis Granderson (14, 36) 45.4 L17. Ryan Braun (11, 33) 44.4 R18. Troy Tulowitzki (12, 32) 43.7 R19. Adrian Gonzalez (14, 35) 43.2 L20. Ben Zobrist (12, 36) 43.1 B
― nomar, Monday, 26 June 2017 16:39 (two years ago) link
oops, Beltran also hasn't retired. anyway, Beltre is also the only one still playing at a high level.
― nomar, Monday, 26 June 2017 16:40 (two years ago) link
i guess from that list, in keeping w/the spirit of this thread, I think Evan Longoria is super underrated. playing in Tampa doesn't help, and maybe neither does the fact that he was a massively hyped prospect who was maybe overshadowed and has simply had a vv quietly outstanding career to date.
― nomar, Monday, 26 June 2017 16:42 (two years ago) link
was a lil surprised that Nellie cruz only has 28.1 career war tho I guess a product of not being a regular til he was 28 yrs old & prob having negative defensive ratings factored in
― johnny crunch, Tuesday, 11 July 2017 16:49 (two years ago) link
nick markakis being a decent two week stretch away from 2,000 career hits is blowing my mind.
― nomar, Tuesday, 11 July 2017 17:01 (two years ago) link
for some reason i often find myself navigating to cruz's stat pages and being surprised by his WAR, as well.
― Karl Malone, Tuesday, 11 July 2017 17:29 (two years ago) link
personally, i always underrate ian kinsler. it's totally arbitrary, but he's 12th in fWAR since 2010
i guess it's just because he's in the AL so i rarely watch him play, and he accumulated a lot of his value through solid defense, which lends itself to underratededereradfdsf
― Karl Malone, Tuesday, 11 July 2017 17:32 (two years ago) link
I was thinking about Cruz the other day, that he might be on a list of highest percentage of career WAR accumulated during a player's 30s.
― clemenza, Tuesday, 11 July 2017 17:41 (two years ago) link
Comparison to three guys I associate with this:
Cruz - 20.5 WAR during 30s/28.1 career WAR = 73%Bautista - 27.7/34.7 = 80%Jeff Kent - 40.6/55.2 = 74%Luis Gonzalez - 32.5/51.5 = 63%
Bautista was 29 when he hit 54 HR, otherwise he'd be up near 100%. I think it's much more common for this to happen with pitchers.
― clemenza, Tuesday, 11 July 2017 18:00 (two years ago) link
also edgar martinez - 49.6 of 68.3 = 73%ozzie smith - 52 of 76.5 = 68%
i should subscribe to the B-R play index so i can see the top ten and past twenty
― Karl Malone, Tuesday, 11 July 2017 18:16 (two years ago) link
The Jays had two of them--Edwin just crossed 60%, and I wouldn't be surprised if he works his way up to 75% by the time he retires.
― clemenza, Tuesday, 11 July 2017 20:19 (two years ago) link
The flip side:
Albert Belle - 68% before he turns 30Juan Gonzalez - 78%Ken Griffey Jr. - 84% Andruw Jones - 92%Nomar Garciaparra - 93%
― clemenza, Tuesday, 11 July 2017 20:59 (two years ago) link
mark fidrych - %100
― mookieproof, Tuesday, 11 July 2017 23:16 (two years ago) link
Elvis Andrus? Crossed 30 WAR last season, most years in the 4.0-4.5 range, off to a great start in 2019. Jays fans will always remember him for his role (two crushing errors) in the bat-flip inning.
― clemenza, Sunday, 14 April 2019 21:53 (seven months ago) link
In James's piece on the greatest center fielders ever:
"I guess that what I am saying is that even among underrated players, (Jimmy Wynn) is underrated. We have a kind of list of historically underrated players, in our field; Bobby Grich, Darrell and Dwight Evans, Gene Tenace, Rick Reuschel. I’m not sure that Wynn gets the references that he deserves on that list."
James has him 14th, a little higher than Jaffe (17th).
― clemenza, Saturday, 19 October 2019 12:19 (one month ago) link