What's the first modern metal album?

Yeah but a novel record on it's own is often just a novelty record. A novel record that catches the imagination and inspires others is a keystone.

I'm fully aware how critically mauled the first two Black Sabbath albums are.

My thinking is that KORN were probably thinking of Public Enemy, Godflesh, Killing Joke, early FNM etc when they first kicked off and were probably not saying 'We've got to sound like Walk This Way.'

Yeah, the "obviously" was a joke. Obviously.

Still don't understand how "You Really Got Me" is a novelty record, though. (Maybe you're confusing the Kinks with, I don't know, the Trashmen?) Also always thought "All Day And All Of The Night" (and probably "My Generation") sounded more proto-metal than "You Really Got Me," fwiw. But that's just me.

I don't think it's a novelty record. It has a novel sound (the distortion was created by a ripped speaker cone, giving it that distinctive filthy distortion), rather than it being, I dunno, 'Star Trekkin'' by The Firm or 'Shaddapayaface' by Joe Dolce. (It's worth mentioning that many great leaps forward in music have happened because of accidents like this, it's just that no one really followed on from this single, giving it more of a novel nature.)

Now, imagine an alternate history where loads of groups had purposefully modified or fucked up amps to mimic this sound, with loads of groups having this really raw distortion, then the history of popular music as we know it would be totally different. But for better or worse, they didn't.

However, when Black Sabbath combined a heavy chord progression based roughly around the devi's interval, that occupied the ground between classical tradition and brutal primitivism played at punishingly loud volume, with an electric urgency of delivery, a guitar solo and lyrics of a dark and mysterious spirituality they were (obviously unwittingly) setting up and codifying loads of genre conventions which would go on in the future to be known as heavy metal (or doom metal at the very least).

It doesn't matter that they were almost universally reviled by the media at the time. Even people like Lester Bangs (who popularized the use of the term heavy metal in association with music), I'm pretty certain, saw Sabbath as a novelty band (and a piss poor one at that) until Masters Of Reality came out.

But convention after convention is solidified on the first album... the rejection of cosmopolitan London trends for working class solidarity in the provinces, the summoning up of elemental powers by having the album open with a 'field recording' of rainfall, thunder and a tolling bell and the bleak, disturbing cover imagery. Throwing Satan into the mix (albeit in a terrified cowering response to him)...

I totally get where people are coming from when they say Link Wray and The Kinks etc but it's tantamount to playing a parlour game.

FWIW. I think people who give the modern metal nod to Priest are bang on the money. They'd be my first choice with Venom and Slayer and Metallica coming close second, third and fourth for various reasons already stated.

Priest vanquished the blues though. And set the uniform.

From talking to bands like Cathedral, Electric Wizard, Ramesses etc. I know there are supposed to be examples of doom metal from before Black Sabbath but I've never heard them so I can't comment.

the rejection of cosmopolitan London trends for working class solidarity in the provinces

Y'what?

In UK terms it was important that Sabbath came from Aston in Birmingham. Zeppelin may count two guys from the midlands from their ranks but I've seen the houses they grew up in and they're from a different world entirely. One of the important factors in the strength of heavy metal (again, imo) is that it was totally ignored by the press for ages and when it was reviewed it was nearly always in negative terms or concentrated on almost sub-human descriptions of the fans. This wasn't virtuoso middle class guitar gods in paisley playing solos while someone warbled on about elves. This was something different. More ungainly. More ugly. Certainly more working class.

Again, I can't talk for the US but I feel that in the UK certain scenes have become phenomenally strong for taking hold outside of London with little or no positive press coverage, instead relying on fanzines and alternative media to promote itself. You could say the same thing (outside of one or two London clubs) about acid house.

I can understand Vice Magazine's fascination with donk a few years back, even though it's got no real interest to me, I can see where they're coming from...

Anyone interested should look up early Black Sabbath reviews on Rock's Backpages etc. I've got loads of books on Sabbath that reprint savage early reviews as well.

This wasn't virtuoso middle class guitar gods in paisley playing solos while someone warbled on about elves.

lol, tom d could take this 2 ways ("i wasn't a virtuoso") haha

Jimmy Page reference?

Or Richie Blackmore? (Don't actually know Richie's background tbh)

It was a throwaway comment rather than some sort of deeply thought out statement but...

(And I will say that too much is made of Iommi's supposedly untutored, bludgeoning style (probably by me on this very thread) and how this was down to his none-more-doom finger tip accident. You only have to hear Planet Caravan or Sleeping Village to hear that he was a pretty shit hot guitarist from the get go. I guess he wouldn't have been asked to join Jethro Tull. But he wasn't virtuoso or showily virtuoso in the way his peers were.)

Wouldn't have been asked to join Jethro Tull if he weren't a brilliant guitarist, I mean.

Throwaway comment which described Jimmy Page to a T! Iommi was oft mocked for his lack of ability at the time, as were the entire band, which is clearly ludicrous - Bill Ward, for one, is awesome.

I don't know much about Blackmore either. My mate played me some albums by Blackmore's Night the other week. It was an emotionally draining experience...

I'm loving this thread now. Any time Bill Ward is talked up is a great thing.

My mate worked with Bill Ward for a few months recently. He said his sincerity was so profound it was almost psychedelic and he found himself almost bursting into tears after the most mundane of conversations with him.

an alternate history where loads of groups had purposefully modified or fucked up amps to mimic this sound, with loads of groups having this really raw distortion

Have you heard of garage rock?

Yeah, I was wondering when someone would say this. I understand what you're saying but The Sonics and MC5 and The Trashmen etc don't trace their proud lineage back to a 45 by The Kinks.

Just for once, you could ignore tradition and read what I've written instead of going for the easy snark.

My mate worked with Bill Ward for a few months recently. He said his sincerity was so profound it was almost psychedelic and he found himself almost bursting into tears after the most mundane of conversations with him.

He had me welling up a few times on that history of heavy metal thing on BBC4

XP: Garage rock, despite some similarities is not the forebear of heavy metal. (Although it may well be an influence on some players.)

My mate worked with Bill Ward for a few months recently. He said his sincerity was so profound it was almost psychedelic and he found himself almost bursting into tears after the most mundane of conversations with him.

― Duran (Doran), Thursday, August 12, 2010 9:29 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

This post almost makes me burst into tears. Ive heard he's one of the nicest guys ever. When you see his interviews he seems so goddamn cool.

A feeling that Blackmore doesn't inspire in me somehow... (even though I respect his right to dress up as Mediaeval minstrel on a dirty weekend...)

http://www.thehighwaystar.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/bn_promo_2003.jpg

Balls.

http://www.thehighwaystar.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/bn_promo_2003.jpg

Never gets old that photo (same cannot be said of Richie)

He doesnt look that bad compared to some of his contemporaries. Has anybody seen a picture of Mick Ralphs lately? Holy shit.

"Garage rock, despite some similarities is not the forebear of heavy metal."

its certainly one of them. along with cream and hendrix and others. the roots of metal are found in the roots of garage rock. the who, animals, them, pretty things, kinks, etc.

I don't disagree. As are Hammer House of Horror soundtracks, but I wouldn't say that the OST to the Abominable Dr Phibes was the first heavy metal album.

Another way I might put it is to define "modern metal" as "NWOBHM"...
Force It came out in '75, sounds like it could be '85...
Montrose does not sound like a 1973 heavy rock record.

Okay, I'm finally getting this. "Modern metal" basically means "fast '80s metal (but not hair and not necessarily thrash and what came after)", then.

this is what I'm thinking this poll is getting at, the sound that accompanied metal's rise to prominence as a genre during the 80s. metal is too disparate to identify one single album that contains all its impulses, but if you want to see who set the tone for the late 70s through to slayer, ya gotta go with priest's sad wings.

I love sabbath above all other metal bands, but the only bands in the 80s who were trying to sound like sabbath were freaks like kilslug and drunks with guns. today there's a bunch of ppl who try to sound like sabbath but that's a revivalist subgenre, stoner/sludge/doom/whatever. if I listen to more recent metal stuff like dillinger escape plan, kylesa, rwake, mastodon, howl, neither paranoid nor sad wings can really be seen as templates for what they're doing. too much water under the bridge, or years of slayer/metallica pollutants.

but if you want to talk about who generated the connective tissue between early bluesy/hard rock metal and speed/thrash/death, I'm going with priest. or spinal tap.

roots of metal are found in the roots of garage rock. the who, animals, them, pretty things, kinks

Troggs, too -- who had some direct connections with Sabbath, right? (Too lazy to look up the specifics right now.) And even if garage rock was not in the lineage of metal (which it totally was -- lots of guys from '60s garage bands -- or the kinds of bands that were later called "garage", anyway, since nobody used the term at the time apparently -- wound up in early '70s metal bands. And obviously there were lots of bands on the cusp, from the Amboy Dukes to Black Pearl to Chocolate Watchand etc), to say the Kinks didn't inspire " loads of groups had purposefully modified or fucked up amps to mimic this sound, with loads of groups having this really raw distortion" just sounds wrong. I was thinkig the same thing as Col. Poo, before he typed it. You don't need alternate history; it's already there.

I do like Duran Doran's focus on the British class system, though. Interesting -- and the comparison with donk probably makes sense. Though I doubt people will still be playing it four decades from now.

Even people like Lester Bangs (who popularized the use of the term heavy metal in association with music), I'm pretty certain, saw Sabbath as a novelty band (and a piss poor one at that) until Masters Of Reality came out.

Metal Mike Saunders, who used the term heavy metal to describe the genre (in a Sir Lord Baltimore review in Creem iirc) before Bangs did, loved Sabbath from the gitgo, as I recall. But he was basically a kid at the time, way more in Sabbath's target demographic than older critics then were.

I do like Duran Doran's focus on the British class system, though. Interesting

... but not entirely convincing tbh

never trust an old fart critic is the moral of the story then? ;)

"I understand what you're saying but The Sonics and MC5 and The Trashmen etc don't trace their proud lineage back to a 45 by The Kinks."

Large % of garage rock does trace back to the noise-ier end of the Kinks, Yardbirds, Stones, Who, Troggs, Pretty Things, Them, etc...

XP: There's a definite difference to the way that garage rock, heavy rock and heavy metal are related in the US though. Over here for example, there are loads of garage rock groups that we think of as being par for the course because of the internet and CD reissue culture etc that Black Sabbath just wouldn't even have heard of when they were starting out. And the heritage of US rock is always easier to define. There's an easier to follow family tree. I can see how Link Ray relates to The Sonics relates to Blue Cheer much easier than I can hear Helter Skelter or You Really Got Me or what have you being an influence on The Village or Black Sabbath.

If you read about what the various members of Black Sabbath were listening to in the late 60s, sure The Kinks were probably in there somewhere (as probably were The Troggs and Hendrix and The Yardbirds as well) but this is all kind of secondary to the novel aspect of introducing the element of horror. The devil's interval. The tolling bells. The bludgeoning sound that suggested primitavism. This is all the stuff that introduced the break with what went before hand. I know heavy metal wasn't invented in a vacuum but it was different enough from what went before to be remarkable. (And can you really say that about Vanilla Fudge or Blue Cheer?)

But still, to get back to the poll, I'd say that it was still also part of a tradition enough to be just a sub genre of rock music until the dawn of modern metal. But when did that start? I'd say with Judas Priest. That's when metal became a genre in it's own right. Right?

"but this is all kind of secondary to the novel aspect of introducing the element of horror."

Screaming Lord Sutch and Crazy World of Arthur Brown so bitter.

Judas Priest. That's when metal became a genre in it's own right. Right?

Wrong. At least if you trust all the people who considered it a genre in its own right before then.

But again, throw the ambiguous "modern" in there, and you might have a point.

XP: ""I understand what you're saying but The Sonics and MC5 and The Trashmen etc don't trace their proud lineage back to a 45 by The Kinks."

Large % of garage rock does trace back to the noise-ier end of the Kinks, Yardbirds, Stones, Who, Troggs, Pretty Things, Them, etc.."

Look, I'm only saying how I see it, but one more time: that one record wasn't the start of garage rock but Black Sabbath by Black Sabbath, the track arguably was the start of heavy metal. I'm sorry I haven't made myself more clear on this thread.

As for the working class roots of metal... well, this is another argument for another day. I'd almost say metal's roots as a provincial working class genre are so obvious as to make the argument almost redundant but I'll lay out my case tomorrow if anyone's interested.

When did metal become so middle class in the UK? It definitely was like that when I left school in 1990

"but Black Sabbath by Black Sabbath, the track... was the start of heavy metal."

I actually agree with this. That's why I voted for that album.

Alex In SF: there's that idea of novelty again.

XHUXK: That's exactly what I'm saying.

Pfunk: It may be a regional thing. I left school in the mid 80s and it was definitely a working class thing. There again, I went to a nearly 100% working class school in a working class area, so I've just realised I've got no real way of telling...

I blame that Bruce Dickinson

XP: I mean, would it be any easier to pin point when hip hop 'became a white thing' (in terms of who buys it) in the US? Or even if this is actually the case...

so did i, but there was still some middle class kids and they were the few that listened to metal. Most people were into U2, INXS, Simple Minds & co

xps

Yes, the Beastie Boys.

Most people were into U2, INXS, Simple Minds & co

The Minds, you mean

but Black Sabbath by Black Sabbath, the track... was the start of heavy metal."

I actually agree with this. That's why I voted for that album.

― Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Thursday, August 12, 2010 10:37 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

absolutely

well Ayr wasnt actually 100% working class, it always had a tory mp, but it was a catholic school so pupils came from all over the place.I lived in Prestwick which was like 50/50.

I blame that Bruce Dickinson

ha, me too! maiden went from songs about finding yr deadbeat dad and stabbing ppl at tube stations to adaptations of coleridge poems wtf

I'm voting for "Boris the Spider" as the start of heavy metal (Hendrix's fave. Who song)

anyway it wasnt kids whose parents bought their house and working hard to pay for it, it was definitely kids of teachers, doctors,lawyers that were into maiden and the like. Could just have been my school, if there was more than 10 people in my school who liked metal I'd be shocked (gnr were the exception)
Some ilxors who went to private school say metal was really popular in the late 80s.

mussorgsky invented metal when he wrote "night on bald mountain"