Elliott Smith is dead.

(and for what it's worth I don't believe he wanted to.)

sam: 1. i don't understand your first sentence. if people could find relief they would need to kill themselves? don't you mean the opposite that they wouldn't need to kill themselves?
2. why do you think that he didn't want to kill himself? he tried to kill himself several times. do you think it was an accident? or do you think that he was crazy or something? doing things he didn't want to do?

Gotcha.

Your post above seems to want to reduce the suicidal mindset to a rather simpler thing than it actually is. The "bullshit pills" reference a few posts up seems misguided at best: lots of people who don't take antidepressants wrongly think of them as "happy pills." What they do is address the biochemical issues that are thought by many to have at least partial responsibility for chronic depression that hasn't responded to therapy. E.S. had suffered from both depression and addiction for ages. Neither condition is a simple thing: it's not like E.S. woke up one fine Portland day and said "Fuck it! I'm gonna be a depressed guy, 'cause that's how I like it!" Treatment for this condition isn't "bullshit," nor is refusing to get treated "keeping it real" by any stretch of the imagination.

To use a related example. When I was a psych nurse I had a bunch of patients who were dispomaniacs i.e. who couldn't stop drinking water. You find this thing a lot with chronic schizophrenics, which is what most of my patients were. One guy we had was so far gone that if you let him shower alone, he'd just stand underneath the shower head and drink everything that came out. EVERYTHING. Which will kill you pretty quick, as your electrolyte balance'll get all thrown outta whack and then your blood pressure gets so low that it makes your heart work too heart and kablooey. So, under doctor's orders, we nurses did everything we could to stop him, including restricting his water intake and monitoring his intake & output of all fluids.

From the sounds of it, you'd say we were "restricting his freedom" or something. But he didn't wanna die! Something was wrong with his brain! And depression, despite the way western countries romanticize the hell out of it, isn't some deeper metaphysical understanding of the universe. It's a malfunction of the organism. Sometimes a little of it can be healthy: adversity breeds character! When it makes you wanna kill yourself, then it's time to call it what it is: an ILLNESS. And treat it, regardless of whether or not "alternative" types might sneer as how "false" one is being by choosing happiness over despair.

in the sense that depression doesn't do any good to your organism this is certainly true. but somehow i don't buy this reduction of a psychic problem which a depression obviously is to purely physical causes. those antidepressants seem to me like a treatment of the organic symptoms and not the real causes which are psychic. i am no expert on this and i am certainly depressive too at times but i would get very angry if someone forced me to take pills or whatever to cure my so-called depression.

what i don't like about this discussion is that suicide per se seems to be interpreted as the final effect of an illness. and that's certainly not correct. nobody has chosen to live in this world. so everybody is free to take his life. of course there might be cases of people who would kill themselves without wanting it and need help like the water drinker you mentioned but that certainly must be pretty rare.

"Depressive at times" - as I say, this can be quite healthy! For people who suffer CHRONIC depression, though, it's a whole different ballgame. Their ability to act in their own interest suffers. I mean, look: if you bought a car, and the car's CPU caused it to drive into a wall every time its tank was a little low, you'd get it fixed, right? I think you have a romantic idea about how psychotropic medications work & about what they do. NB I'm not saying they're not overprescribed - they are - but overprescription doesn't equal "they are horrible," and they certainly don't "change" people's personalities.

X with John, who, once again, I agree with.

as for him not wanting to. . .it's just my gut feeling here. Attempts don't always mean you want to die just that you don't see other options. Sometimes these attempts reveal other options you were missing all along.

I don't want to speculate on or discuss this individual anymore. It's too heartbreaking for me.

Actually, this is precisely what I suspected - the accounts of recent performances suggested an increasing loosening of associations, etc.

Grieving does nothing for the dead. We grieve for ourselves, for what we can no longer have. Elliott Smith got exactly what he wanted, and we can give and take nothing else from the man. Because it provided a sense of approval and connection, Smith's old concerts can now be remembered as sacred events. But what a failure of the imagination: all moments are equally rare, whether someone is playing a guitar or not, whether Smith is alive or dead. Those on the message boards who are grateful they saw him perform live are fully vested in the lie that somehow the story, the man, and the experience of the music are all bound together, that the aggregate pleasure of thousands can be summed up into one living soul, one ex-addict with a beating heart, and now his entirely solitary act—seppuku without the second—can be seen as some kind of communion, a concluding act to his oeuvre of bitter depression. A pair of round cracked eyeglasses on an album cover, and a ticket stub from 1998. A bit of cloth dipped in his blood, a fragment of the true cross. It's all about
taking
the easy way out
for you,
I suppose.

(yes the 14 year old is back)

Everyone says they’re happy pills. They’re not. If I’m having a shit day I still have a shit day. But it’s not like a shit day/week/month/half-a-fucking year like I used to have. I used to wake up every morning thinking about death.

Not in a wanky self-absorbed romanticised ‘everyone will miss me when I’m gone’ kind of way. More like an animal that knows it’s gonna die soon. If you don’t know what I’m talking about, be around a dying dog.

My conscious mind was in denial about suicide, my unconscious mind was running amok. I was dreaming about how I was gonna go. I had preferred method, location, time – all ‘hypothetical’ of course. The shadows that took me at night were always present in my waking time. Turning ‘the act’ over and over. Refining. Planning. Don’t tell me that‘s a fucking normal state of mind,

People think of suicide like an act. It’s more like an unstoppable motion, a whirlpool event that becomes irreversible at a certain point down the spiral wall. You can see clearly where it all went wrong, back at the outer reaches before you went down the flume. At this point you’re at the mercy of the beast. It either spins itself out or you go down the hole. Depression is cyclical. Next time round it may not be so benevolent.

I was lucky. I got help in time and made it through the potentially dangerous first 2 weeks of treatment. My dosage is now reduced although I accept that I may have to be on medication for the rest of my life. Life still has it’s attendant miseries and humiliations – ho, ho. Still,I can deal with them better without this dark ambient noise that drowns out everything else.

ten years gone

47 minutes gone hahahahaha never change ILX

maybe i was a little misguided upthread. i don't think i would romanticize suicide as much anymore. in any case i still believe there are situations where suicide may be a relief. like when you have a tumor which eats up your brain. like this guy for example.

Would have been 50. RIP.

Man everyone was so mean 15 years ago

I knew better than to read posts, this was just the first non album Smith thread I saw.