Craigslist hilarity

seriously fuck you, you're one of the most impolite fucking posters on ilx

I think the problem is that this guy has decided to participate in the social world of 'people who meet people in bars', which imo is a pretty douchey world to begin with, and yeah it has douchey rules, but you've already accepted them by putting yourself in that situation. you can hit on random strangers outside of bars too, and you don't have to buy them anything.

I was going to put (SB) after my comment but forgot, sorry for the trolling :(

louis i didnt think kate was being that impolite

i was being way ruder and you didnt say "fuck you" to me

i did, the 'fuck yous' were for kate, you and mh for successive xposts

well in any event she wasnt really being impolite

fwiw, I think we're all on the same page about the guy being a clown, the girl being a jerk, and it having more to do with the fact that he's 22 and thinks he's unraveled something about the bar dynamic while really not even having the self-consciousness to know he's acting ridiculously unenlightened.

What other thread did I miss, darraghmac?

but well done kate for outing me as a misogynist why don't you tell the world i am the enemy of woman

I don't think she said that either

pretty sure kate didnt call you a misogynist

I think the problem is that this guy has decided to participate in the social world of 'people who meet people in bars', which imo is a pretty douchey world to begin with, and yeah it has douchey rules, but you've already accepted them by putting yourself in that situation

^ now that's nailing it imo

^I agree with that 100%, hence saying neither he nor I are comfortable in that world

drawing attention to the fact that hey, this guy you're relating to didn't exactly make the best moves there -- that's not a direct hit on you, louis.

I'm used to the type. The guys who go on at great length about how "feminist" they are and then actually get angry at you for failing to appreciate their gallant chivalrous gestures of "feminism" while still showing that they don't actually understand what the concept entails on any more than the crudest level.

It doesn't mean I think you're misogynist, Louis. It just means that it is, perhaps, harder for men to *get* what it means in praxis as well as theory.

I appreciate acoleuthic's sympathetic read on the dude, but I think if he had a friend who liked the girl he should have brought the friend over and introduced him. "Can I buy you a drink?" is implicitly "I'm flirting with you" and if the truth is "I'm buying you a drink to make a point to a third party," which is pretty clearly what was going on, I think that's low. I mean, I'm happy that it all ended well with his open-minded friend and lonely high-BMI girl getting it on while dude listens in, furiously pounding out a Craigslist essay, &c.

I'm also grimacing every time I type "the fatty" but I feel I have to, because the guy framed it that way and that adds to the inherent ridiculousness

TBH, the 2000 word essay on Craigslist smells a bit too much like "methinks the lady protests too much" for me.

Like, what probably actually happened was, the girl unsubtly asked him for a drink as a way of flirting, he totally choked and flubbed the attempted pickup because he was so flabbergasted that a girl was that forward with him, and spent the rest of the night hammering out this essay about why the imagined orgasms he could have had with her would have been so shit in a sour grapes kinda way, while his mate had loud sex next door.

Because, in my experience, guys don't generally write bitter philosophical 2000 word essays about the girls that *they* turned down, if you know what I mean?

I like that the larger girl is framed as lonely and as a more friendly person. She can't be a drink-demanding chick, you see, because she's flawed. I want to see the follow-up post where he finds out she stole their wallets and gave his housemate VD.

What other thread did I miss, darraghmac?

I kinda gritted my teeth a little better than lj through a lot of fairly similar (if a little rougher? i dunno) treatment in a thread about whether there's now balance btwn the sexes (you should still find on site new answers). Really I just thought a lazy guardian article was a lazy guardian article, not symptomatic of a daily struggle- ppl disagreed.

But, honest and freely given disclaimer, I'm self-acknowledgely clueless in this arena and I was probably bearing the brunt of people being frustrated with my denseness for 95% of it so no harm no foul imo. I can see maybe why LJ takes it a little harder when honest effort on his part is viewed so cynically- I'm sure he's not claiming to be the #1 expert around on it either.

Because, in my experience, guys don't generally write bitter philosophical 2000 word essays about the girls that *they* turned down, if you know what I mean?

― The Wicked Deadache (Masonic Boom),

Grade A truthbomb xp

I wasn't getting angry at you for failing to understand any 'gesture of feminism' (this wasn't a gesture of feminism, this was a show of solidarity with a guy who's rightly cynical of bar culture), I was angry because you typed this

stuff like this is why women are kind suspicious of men who go on about how "feminist" they are, while still giving this kind of hypocrisy the thumbs up.

which refers explicitly to my posting on other threads and thus comes across as an ad hominem. yeah, admittedly it pushed my buttons of insecurity, but I don't see how agreeing with this guy shows a betrayal towards 'in praxis' feminism? surely we're still in the realm of theory anyway

the 'making a point to a third party' thing is perhaps an issue, but without that third party she would possibly not have had such a great evening? sometimes even a broad-minded person, especially a young one, needs a jolt of realisation that all humanity is of worth, regardless of appearance. I think if ANY lonely-looking person, regardless of size, shape etc, had been standing there, he'd have had that jolt and acted impulsively.

also I don't think he flubbed the pickup line, it would have been easier to buy her a drink and keep chatting IMO - it's what I'd have probably done!

and yeah she's framed as lonely and lacking in confidence because she was clearly being ignored by her friends.

this is all a minefield but I trust this dude's judgement

this is all a minefield but I trust this dude's judgement

dude, this is why you're getting clowned.

Yeah, about half a dozen signifiers in the dude's last few paragraphs tipped me off to the fact that this was not a dude whose judgement you should be aligning with, if you consider yourself big-f Feminist.

I mean, we got fat-shaming, we got weird smears on the "attractive" girl's sexual performance based on her looks, we got this strange transactional base to his pickup attempts, we got this double standard as to who is allowed to have transactional bases to their pickup attempts... you want to talk minefield?

I know, my bad. I shouldn't be so down on someone who is actually *trying*.

I think in my haste to agree with him I've given his treatment of the girl he got his mate with the benefit of quite some doubt - it's not to say I'd have acted similarly or expressed the turn of events in that sort of manner myself (because I almost certainly wouldn't - I'm really pretty sensitive to that sort of thing).

The smears on the 'attractive' (we're allowed subjective attractiveness, are we not?) girl's potential sexual performance IS projection, as he concedes, but it is in the spirit of the rant. Again, not sure I'd have made such a sweeping generalisation - clearly the dude hasn't made enough of a connection before shagging.

As for the transactional stuff, he said himself that if he bought a drink for a girl of his own accord he'd expect nothing, but if a girl asked him to buy a drink, this would signal interest, which provided a good chat would signal the means to meet up again (and not necessarily go any further) - this sounds fair enough, even if, as I say, bar culture doesn't sound his thing.

I am listening and taking in what you guys are saying and in no way claiming to be an expert - it's this kind of discussion which will keep maturing and shaping me - you gotta put yourself out there, see how the world treats you, react accordingly

if thats your philosophy lou you might not want to get so butthurt when people call you out

I can't help it, especially when one of the things I'm ACTIVELY working on is buffeted

Someone has pointed out, fwiw, that "No, why don't YOU buy ME a drink" would have been the ideal response, and I am inclined to agree

Louis, maybe you should stop talking and go and read Jezebel and the Feministing communities for a few weeks. And I mean *read* - not talk, not post, not try to tell people what their experiences are and what they mean. Just read, and *listen*. Stop trying to shape or own the argument. Accept the fact that Feminism is never going to be something in which you are the expert. That part of the idea of feminism means that you have to occasionally shut up and listen to what women have to say instead of rushing into arguments like you know it all already?

That is actually a serious suggestion. Especially the listening/reading and not posting part.

I've already seen some links from those sites (and largely agreed) but I'm not pretending I know it all already! I'm stating my current, mutable position, and opening myself up to every challenge imaginable. If I hadn't changed at all since first posting to ILX I'd still be absolutely intolerable. These days, I reckon I'm 'occasionally just about tolerable'.

But yeah, I'll have a browse.

i kinda thought no drinks dude was a little bit of a bro for hooking up his mate even though he comes across as a major douche

hilarious thread

Louis, maybe you should stop talking and go and read Jezebel and the Feministing communities for a few weeks.

Can't say I'd really recommend Jezebel, but Feministing is okay.

Jesus, LJ, that guy is clearly a dick. The actual politics of drinks-buying has little do with it, but who would write a massive screed 'warning' people that girls sometimes ask guys to buy them drinks aside from an egotistical wankstain?

maybe you should stop talking and go and read Jezebel and the Feministing communities for a few weeks.

I'm sure I've heard that Jezebel/Feministing are pretty consumerist/libertarian versions of feminism - would those of you who've read them say this is true? Not that this should necessarily stop anyone from reading or enjoying them, mind you, but it's put me off going there (this is a fairly vague memory, too, so feel free to tell me I'm completely wrong).

Pandagon has a lot of good feminist content IMO, and a lot of it from a queer minority perspective, too, since one of the bloggers is a gay black woman and one is a straight white woman.

i don't know about the community side of feministing; some of the front page can be kinda pedantic & semantic imo, and they use 'trigger warnings', which are pretty bullshitty. sometimes i feel weird reading something that offers rolling outrage. has big value in encouraging young feminists though.

i stopped reading that craigslist post when dude was like, i've bought girls drinks in the past but it only led to me getting laid 10% of the time.

would not characterize jezebel as feminist at all tbh; it's been years since i read it though, maybe it's different now

cannot believe any straight single guy anywhere would refuse to buy a cute girl a drink if he's been having decent conversation with her for 20 minutes. unless he's on some fucked up Mystery shit or something

it's not so much a warning as a vent, a publicised diary entry, but yeah point taken he's overstepped - the 'open-minded friend' bit in retrospect was wrong, and he's taking it way too seriously - I admire a good piece of rampant overthinking but yeah

I wrote this earlier

As the guy makes abundantly clear, the girl's RESPONSE to his refusal, coupled with his prior observations of her burning someone off, is what sets in his mind the desire to show up HER shallowness. It's a noble intention. He never claims to have had the last laugh - indeed he says he merely HOPES he had an effect on that girl.

Sure, the bit with the 'chubby' girl is problematic, because it can't NOT be seen as condescending in some way, but is it any more condescending than the phrase "there's someone for everyone"? A phrase I, she and most people with the occasional confidence issue have heard on NUMEROUS occasions? If she'd been happy to NOT have a drink bought for her, she'd have refused, and our man would have looked a bit silly, and wouldn't have written that anecdote. He took the risk that she'd not trust his motives. As it turned out, she was out to have fun and he'd correctly guessed her friends were leaving her alone. I *know* there's a minefield of etiquette as to engaging with someone BECAUSE they look left-out, but I seriously think he did it with noble intentions, and is describing her as 'chubby' because her self-knowledge of being chubby had already defined her insecurity and hesitancy to speak to anyone (not to mention how others might be treating her). It's a fair detail to note, even if he does it insensitively.

Probably the most insensitive detail is how it took an 'open-minded' friend to sleep with that girl. I'll concede that that is off.

Yeah, he wrote it to Craigslist. Yeah, he's an aspie douche for doing so. I kinda admire that.

but even in writing that I turn into the same sort of overanalytical scrawling look-I-have-had-these-thoughts dick he is :D

horseshoe he completely goes on to explain himself and backtrack over that 10% thing in like the next sentence!

hobbes he's clearly NOT on some PUA shiz - just a slightly misguided moral crusade

Feministing is the one I've been linked more and I suspect it's the more widely-accepted site

trigger warnings are so not bullshitty

can I repeat that last sentence - I dated a girl last year for whom trigger warnings were essential - if you've been assaulted in yr life it can have permanent mental consequences and you don't wanna be reading certain things

if i may interject, i would imagine the basic parameters of the story might be true on some basic level but:

a) the girl would actually be that upset* and at some point in the story she morphed from this friendly, funny, smart hipster girl art school student into a girl who tosses around "fatty" and dances with ed hardy frat bros

b) *the caveat being that maybe she would get that upset if the dude overreacted to her request in a manner that isn't fully revealed in this story

c) the overweight girl conveniently shows up in the story like the "magical negro", not existing to prove herself but to prove our hero's worth, even though it must be made clear that she is still on a lesser level than the hero

d) some of the adjectives our hero tosses around are not written from the perspective of a guy who is actually chivalrous

e) an actual chivalrous dude shrugs shit like this off and maybe has a quick laugh about it, but moves on and certainly doesn't write an essay

f) he is definitely protesting too much

omar!

i should clarify from a), her transformation is too convenient and unbelievable. i don't believe this character arc.

^_-

If it isn't a self-important 'hear my wisdom, young men and wenches' warning, why does he state that his friend fell for the exact trap that my post warned against, and that is why he is reposting?

but even in writing that I turn into the same sort of overanalytical scrawling look-I-have-had-these-thoughts dick he is :D

Ha, see, I would consider this critical commentary and thus all is fair game, whereas he is effectively POSTING AN ADVERT to impart this worldly advice.

hobbes he's clearly NOT on some PUA shiz - just a slightly misguided moral crusade

Also, I don't think this is clear - he's negging, he's talking to the 'fat' one, he's singling himself out as someone who does things differently... could totally read this as PUA balls.

Also, omar OTM.

Someone has pointed out, fwiw, that "No, why don't YOU buy ME a drink" would have been the ideal response, and I am inclined to agree

yeah, my thought was that if you're basically accepting some forms of nightclub social standards but you have serious objections to the notion of the man buying the drink (or you're poor, or whatever) then the way to go would be some lolwhaddeverhappenedtoequality quip. Pretty sure that if this dude had acted in any kind of reasonable way (reading it I imagined a pause, a smile drooping into straight-lipped steeliness, a short sharp 'no') he wouldn't have had such a reaction.

I am now feeling exposed as an awful phallocrat by being subscribed to loads of philosophy blogs but only one that ever has anything to do with feminism, and even then only rarely (that one being Infinite Thought).

the description here of his deployment of the "fat girl" in this anecdote is totally ugh

who the hell writes shit like that to craigslist. just had to get it of your chest, nutcase?

e) an actual chivalrous dude shrugs shit like this off and maybe has a quick laugh about it, but moves on and certainly doesn't write an essay

this this a thousand times this