I'm tired of a world without Sleater-Kinney

i'm sure Janet adds oomph to the Jicks. but it's such a step down.

i will hear no bad word about pavement (even though the other day I dumped all their records off my hard drive because I don't listen to them anymore.

I can hang with Dig Me Out, but too much of this stuff and it's soooo lol earnest.

I wish I understood what people see in Pavement. Or the Jicks. Or the 90s.

Pavement != Jicks != 90s

@Alfred: Though I still love Madonna (or did as recently as 2005...now, not so sure), I enjoy a thoughtful dissent instead of someone just saying "she sucks, are you stoopid?!"

Johnny, this is far from a thoughtful dismissal. A statement like "I soon discovered music with fewer filters and disguises, less affect, greater intensity, and most of all, substance" tells me that she's an idealogue, or at the very least deaf to the qualities which made S-K's music so transformative. Then again, this is the person who had a hand in writing "Entertain," so I should expect idealogical purity.

I can't decide whether I hate that "most of all" or the thought informing the phrase with greater intensity.

I DO miss them, but The Woods suggested that they'd exhausted their original store of matereial.

actually, it suggested they desperately needed a mastering engineer who understood the concept of dynamics.

Right -- and were relying on production tricks, filters, disguises, and affect to mitigate the loss of intensity and the increasing suspicion that this was same-old same-old.

Rich wrote a totally reasonable dismissal of Hard Candy. And he doesn't care for her much.

Alfred, c'mon, that post Carrie wrote is mostly about Madonna the phenomenon, not Madonna's new album.

No -- it's also about Madonna the artist. Brownstein doesn't find Madonna worthwhile other than as something vaguely embarrassing/fun she listened to in her childhood. Again, I take issue with terms with which she'd dismissed her. I posted Rick's review as an example of how to do it RIGHT.

Then again, musicians being reactionary non-shockah.

A statement like "I soon discovered music with fewer filters and disguises, less affect, greater intensity, and most of all, substance" tells me that she's an idealogue, or at the very least deaf to the qualities which made S-K's music so transformative.

Alfred, I hope you know that over the years I have really come to value your opinions on music. When I think about what's good about ilx, I think of you, because some of the stuff you've said has really pointed me toward new ways of thinking about music: both about music I'd dismissed or not been able to enjoy as much as I'd hoped, and, on the other hand, as a way also of confirming for me some things I already thought but hadn't quite defined for myself.

I set this up this way because I couldn't disagree with you more on this, and I don't want you to think I'm just being reflexive or unduly dismissive. Carrie's position here is not the "asked/answered/resolved" bunch of non-starter that we all thought it was back in the late 20th century. I built much of my career on a belief that authenticity tropes were bullshit, but I'm no longer as sure of that as I was. S/K's body of work, from beginning to end, can be read as an argument for it, and what I want to say to you is that that argument isn't a pointless retread of things already decided; if it were, S/K's music wouldn't have resonated like it did.

I mean that said I don't like her article either, but that particular point is not, I feel confident, as empty as we have most of us spent many years thinking it to be.

I enjoy Monitor Mix immensely...

it may be helpful to understand that she's not really doing rock criticism per se, al. also that she's right.

It'll be helpful, John, if we separate discussion of S-K's merits from Brownstein's post. If by "authenticity tropes" you mean those qualities in S-K's music that made their depiction of love and loss more powerful and transgressive (hence authentic) than any band of their generation, I totally agree.

But the means by which they reach those authentic depictions of love and loss aren't so clear. From the use of shouted and/or interwined harmonies of The Hot Rock to Carrie's English accent in "Combat Rock" and Corin's Yoko Ono-ese in "Milkshake and Honey," this is a band that relished distance. On their best songs the distance forced us to understand those relationship travails in the frustrating manner of listening to a friend describe a problem whose emotional lexicon you don't get but your empathy and love help you try anyway.

In her post, Brownstein advocates an approach to music that undercuts her contribution to the crafting of S-K's music; call it myopia or naivete. But since we respond to art differently than when we make it, maybe I'll cut her some slack.

btw thanks for the very kind words. They're the nicest things anyone's said all week.

like I said, I have no problem with her indifference to Madonna, but if she thinks Maddie doesn't employ S-K's processes in her own music -- more subversively in her best work, because she's working as a pop artist -- she's fooling herself.

But the means by which they reach those authentic depictions of love and loss aren't so clear.

Well, but this is where I'm going with this: I think they're not as unclear as those of use who're fond of theory are prone to think. I wonder if the distance you speak of on earlier S/K records isn't somewhat a product of not having enough budget (=time to listen to mixes & re-think) rather than of embracing ambiguities, and I'm less convinced of the null value of authorial intention than I was...well, to shoot straight, than I was before I'd been the guy with an intention for 15 years or so.

Here we may approach a kind of uncrossable divide: for a performer who traffics, or comes to traffic, in personal/less-veiled/more-direct performances, the things that consequently occur between performer & audience may redefine the space in such a way that previously-embraced models lose some of their appeal. If this is true, I'm kind of a worthless debate partner here, because I know exactly when a lot of my thoughts about the relationship between performer & material & audience got a lot less clearly separable for me, and where some of the old tired "you can tell when somebody's really close to his material" tropes began to seem less hollow/phoned-in to me.

But since we respond to art differently than when we make it, maybe I'll cut her some slack.

but yeah unfortunately this is the other thing: what artists have to say about art is of quetstionable value: forest/trees etc.

From the use of shouted and/or interwined harmonies of The Hot Rock to Carrie's English accent in "Combat Rock" and Corin's Yoko Ono-ese in "Milkshake and Honey," this is a band that relished distance.

affecting accents automatically = "distance"? from louis armstrong's entirely half-valved solo in fletcher henderson's "shanghai shuffle" to arthur lee adopting a faux-english accent in love's "andmoreagain", to m.i.a's myriad vocal affectations, nothing could be further from the truth. if anything, such changes in approach reduce distance by (among other things) partially deflating the self-seriousness of a piece, giving the listener a knowing wink, while drawing them closer.

You said "automatically," I didn't.

M.I.A.'s "myriad" vocal affectations are precisely why she doesn't deserve a place here -- sometimes they add distance, sometimes they do what you say.

I have no problem with her indifference to Madonna

I do. That is totally rockist. next thing you'll be saying Mariah carey isn't the greatest singer in the history of music.

haha

wtf is going on on this thread

people havin a discussion branching out from an essay by a woman who used to play in Sleater-Kinney

any other questions

You guys are over my head now, with all the talk about motivations and artist p'sov. I admit that when I first read Carrie's article about Madonna, something inside me said "eew, I'd have expected better," but then I realized that anyone can dislike pretty much anything for whatever reason makes him or her comfortable and left it at that.

no thanks john that was a good summation. i have a feeling if i read the essay i'd get upset and start having bullshit arguments so i think i won't. sound ok?

it's not much of an essay, it's quite brief. The gist of it is Madonna = contrived.

i see

well duh

haha

Can anyone give me a good reason to like this band?

I thought we did!

One of the members saw the beastie boys booed off stage one time. True story.

xpost

brightscreamer please name one band you didn't like and then somebody told you "here's a reason to like them" and then you were like "oh ok well then I see, they are my favorite now"

That worked with me on The Velvet Underground. Someone said, "Listen to 'The Gift'" and it worked. That probably explains why I still like John Cale more than any other member, but at least I don't turn my nose up at any of the first four VU records anymore.

What's so impressive about them, though? They just seem so ordinary to me in every way other than their gender.

J0hn D. - Animal Collective.

i don't know that you could call them ordinary. a mean a lot of things but ORDINARY? i would say more abrasive and dissonant or something

For me, it's song structure (and especially guitar playing) choices they make. Lots of cool chord changes I wasn't expecting and then the melodies and harmonies that go over them. Also, Janet is a fierce drummer.

Like most bands, I only notice particular lyrics if they're really really good, and there are several S-K songs I'd say hit me on that front.

Really? You heard 'em, didn't like 'em, somebody said "here's a reason to like them," and boom, their music sounded pleasant to you? In that case, shoot, the guitars on s/k's The woods are 1) recorded beautifully 2) played fiercely 3) sound like the guitar on Wonderama's "Padre Pio (the Stigmatist)" might have sounded if it hadn't been recorded in a broom closet.

I mean I listen to an assload of fuckin guitar records and most of the beardo freakout shit that gets props isn't fit to stand near The Woods, and that's my word.

I agree. The guitar on that first track on the Woods is pretty fucking magic.

The Woods was really well-received, if i remember correctly. it was an exciting moment. i guess i feel like they're one u either love for the vox or hate for the vox

actually the one thing I hated about The Woods was the reception it got - lots of "at last, a serious album of serious rock instead of all this twaddle" (i.e., stuff non-different in tone from the article we started with here) which is just UGH. but yeah lots of that faded the first time I listened to it - I can't even imagine anybody who'd listened to it saying it sounded "ordinary," it was about 2x bigger than all the other dialed-back indie stuff around then

Give me a playlist with which to convince me of their greatness. Or just an album. I'll give it a listen.

yes i never got the run-of-the-mill-indie vibe from them at all

listen to The Woods, the last one, it's quite good. I mean you sound like you're gonna be goin into it with your arms folded ready to announce that everybody just likes it 'cause they're women, so I don't expect you'll get much out of it w/that kinda baggage, but it's a terrific record.

I'm probably in the minority (it's seemed that way for years anyway), but my favorite S-K album front-to-back is All Hands on the Bad One. Everything I ever wanted from them came together in one place for that record.

if there were ten indie bands whose riffs were as decent as s/k's indie rock would be like a totally awesome genre

that was always my favorite title (all hands).

john but what do you think of their vocals?

I'll give it a purchase and an open-minded listen, J0hn. Thanks for the recommendation.

it depends on who's singing. I am terrible at keeping track of who's who in bands but the indie vox, yeah, "ordinary" is a fair cop there - they sound like the genre standard. but the gigantic voice - the one in the lead-off track on the woods & in the song where she says "johnny get your gun" - that huge rich bellow - that just hits me in all the right spots, it's like the microphone is finally getting to open up a little. huge force of nature voice, that'n.

reasons to love S-K:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=gYAitpi6Dhg

~50 seconds in - drum break before getting into my favorite Corin vocal ever
2:20 - guitar freak-the-fuck-out
2:50-3:10 - Carrie's solo
3:10-3:30 - Corin playing clean

St-V records have been produced by John Congleton, except the last one (Congleton and Antonoff and somebody else) and the acoustic re-imagining of the last one (St. V and Thomas Bartlett) and at this point I think she probably is equipped to be herself as good or better a producer as any of her producers

sent to a friend earlier: "I mean eno/byrne works so I guess. It does kinda sniff of “all my new famous friends” but idk. I can’t say anything bad about any of them"

SK are a strong enough band to shine through whatever production they choose, so i'm happy they're making another record. hopefully it's as good as the last one

I kind of would like them to aim a little higher (haven't felt the desire to listen to No Cities since the reunion tour).

No Cities has been a surprisingly fitting soundtrack to the Trump years.

Maybe she'll be their Daniel Lanois. (Which I'm not even sure if I mean as a good or bad thing.)

I wanna be your Daniel Lanois
put reverb on everything, make it sound like gauze

I like St. Vincent best when she's rocking out the aggro covers (Pop Group, Big Black) so I'm optimistic

agree with fgti here. not sure if i like that best as much as maybe "appreciate that bit the most." man i've never really thought about that feeling, when you look at an artist and think "i love that she goes _there_," rather than "this is what she does BEST"!

I saw her a bunch on the St. V tour and found myself looking forward to those covers extremely, the moment when she and her band go off-click and just rock out. "Like her best when she's" is accurate for my experience, but like, I think the contrast between her slaved-to-a-click main set and those aggro digressions is partially responsible for why I liked those moments so much

haven't felt the desire to listen to No Cities since the reunion tour

OK this was kind of dumb of me to say, as I listened just now and it was great -- "Fade" is kind of an SK metal song!

St. Vincent too fussy.

NSFW Tweet teasing... something

ITT: a butt

they're playing the Hopscotch Festival in Raleigh in September, hopefully the album will be out by then? (I'm not clicking that link)

i think it's teasing a new single

not a big st. vincent fan so was a bit worried but first single rules

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5uAH0vNn2s

could maybe do without the reverby yelps

this sounds very much like what i'd expect sleater-kinney produced by st. vincent to sound like

I like it! Never have really listened to St. Vincent, so to me it sounds like a less noisey The Woods.

otm xp

Missed this charity album track from '17 (not on youtube): https://open.spotify.com/album/3BEQvcAzhYWoYVu41ySTdd?si=dIHsWEd5Q724zQew6N6Yxg

I'm really digging this, and ufo otm. It's weird (but good) that there's so much bass in the mix, though, considering Janet said a few years ago, "That big bass sound that hits you in your gut is unpleasant!"

Really liking this

Miranda July! I always forget about her.

Liking this too! It feels like a logical progression from NCTL, dancey post-punk but this time with glossier production.

Fall US/Canada tour announced today too.

I never listen to No Cities to Love, but it's one of the better comebacks of recent years -- it's like they never left.

Yes. I’m happy for a world with Sleater-Kinney.

Pre-sale tix available now.

New Song!

https://open.spotify.com/album/2KF3U2jrmF8c9L2TmHw3Xa?si=Xh8F8NYgRNSntkaGnkTBqA

"The Future Is Here"...a slower New Wave-y Corin track.

I take back the whole premise of this thread. Now I dream of a world without Sleater-Kinney.

So much older then...