"Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness" by the Smashing Pumpkins

But.... It would have worked better as a 70 minute plus single album rather than an overlong double CD.

It's a true stunner - just pure indulgence from start to finish and yes, at the time I would listen to it from start to finish. I tried listening again the other day - some bits stuck out and others faded into the background, but that's merely from having heard it so many times that it's been etched upon my eardrums like a hot pie or a pasty. No mainstream rock band is doing something this big at the moment. It seems that after OK Computer and Mellon Collie, people decided to go back to just drums/guitar/bass punk singalongs as they knew they couldn't compete. I even like the jokey tracks at the end. "Beautiful" just sums up mid-teen crushes so well. "We Only Come Out At Night"; "Lily My One And Only" - these are awesome fun tunes like those on the White Album. Then you've got wicked rockers like "Bullet With Butterfly Wings" and "Love". It's too too good.

But to a 15 year old kid, this tastes like candy-apples. It is a decade old album, and in the same way that at the time we laughed at the Human League, the Smiths and Big Daddy Kane, so to do we about this in 2006. This is why it'll be critically re-evaluated in another ten years and top many a best-of list.

Hmm. I was 24. Maybe it's an American thing. ;-)

Cheers to Charlie.

entirely OTM.
i still go back to this one occasionally, but end up only listening to rough 1/2 of it. otherwise, it's a total nostalgia trip and not entirely a worthwhile one.

as far as the singles go- i can really only listen to 1979+33 (odd, both the number name ones!). zero's alright on a drunken night. BWBW's=blech. even as a fan.

Siamese Dream still destroys this album for me. Picese, too.
Adore= dreck of drecktown.
Machina 1= only slightly better.

I don't have a particular CD80 version in mind (yet), but I know that I'd cut "Zero" and "Bullet with Butterfly Wings" in a heartbeat. I don't particularly care for either.

And I could take or leave "Tonight, Tonight," but "Thirty-Three" and "1979" would be essential.

This gets my award for worst lyrics ever:

"Emptiness is loneliness, and loneliness is cleanliness
And cleanliness is godliness, and god is empty just like me (dumb)
Intoxicated with the madness, I'm in love with my sadness (peeee-YUKE!)
Bullshit fakers (like Billy?), enchanted kingdoms
The fasion victims (Oh, like Billy?) chew their charcoal teeth" (dumb)

I'll never forget seeing the debut of the "Bullet With Butterfly Wings" video on Much Music. It would have been October 95.

The lyrics, the riffs, the imagery in the video - all of it made me nauseous. I was extremely disappointed with the album, and I didn't pay attention to them from that moment on.

I think Wogan made a good point. Probably would have sounded great had I been a teenager. I was 23 at the time.

@ concept of this thread

------

01 Where Boys Fear to Tread
02 Bodies
An excellent start to disc two of Mellon Collie; my version keeps both tracks intact, mirroring the one-two punch of "Cherub Rock" and "Quiet, rocking out at the start and avoiding the singles so far.

03 Muzzle
This should have been a single from Mellon Collie; it would be the lead single (and prominently placed third track, like "Today") on my version.

04 1979
05 Here Is No Why
A good spot for a couple strong songs (think "Hummer" and "Rocket") which deserve to come sooner than later in the album; "1979" would be the second or third single, along with...

06 Thirty-Three
07 We Only Come Out at Night
The last of the three singles from my version gets the spot of "Disarm" here, with an excellent low-key song (a la "Soma") to follow it and complement its mood perfectly.

08 Jellybelly
Lest the album go soft before its time, "Geek USA" is mirrored by this one.

09 Galapogos
The epic song, like "Mayonaise," that would rightfully be a fan favorite comes at this point; too far back in the track listing for fair-weather fans, just right for those who learn the album front-to-back.

10 Stumbleine
11 Thru the Eyes of Ruby
12 Lily (My One and Only)
Following the path of "Spaceboy"-"Silverfuck"-"Sweet Sweet" comes this trio of songs; the album's ambitious, lengthy, epic song bookended with a couple shorter, prettier ones.

13 Farewell and Goodnight
The closer on Mellon Collie stays where it should be, closing the album (like "Luna") with subtlety and beauty.

------

I don't really miss anything from the original Mellon Collie with my version, either.

> The ridiculous RAWK songs - "Zero," "Bullet with Butterfly Wings," "Fuck You," "Scorched Earth," and "XYU" - would be perfect for '90s alt-rock bands who actually deserve to suck, not the Pumpkins.

> The slower discarded songs - "To Forgive," "Cupid De Locke," "Take Me Down," "In the Arms of Sleep," "Beautiful," and "By Starlight" - are sappy and forgettable to my ears, especially compared to similar songs that made the cut.

> "Mellon Collie," the instrumental intro, was appropriate for an ambitious double album, not for my version.

> A couple songs in particular - "Tonight, Tonight" and "Love" - just didn't fit the overall mood of my version of the album.

> Two epics on my version would be excessive, so "Porcelina" was left behind in favor of "Ruby," which works better in context.

I've never had any use at all for "Stumbleine." You're probably right about opening with "Where Boys Fear To Tread" - I thought about doing it that way too, I mean that opening bass slide is such a fabulous stage-setter! Something appeals to me about cutting straight in on the out-front riffing trudge of "Zero" though - it sets up an idea of what the album is that will then be immediately blown to pieces by what follows.

Glad to see "Thru The Eyes of Ruby" and "Galapogos" getting their due in any case. And my local alt-rock station actually played "Muzzle" so much I thought it was the final single!

No mainstream rock band is doing something this big at the moment. It seems that after OK Computer and Mellon Collie, people decided to go back to just drums/guitar/bass punk singalongs as they knew they couldn't compete.

This is interesting! I was satisfied thinking of these albums as unique for the period, but has mainstream rock really not produced anything in this vein since? I'm racking my brain and I'm sure we're missing something really obvious. Granted, there have been "ambitious" mainstream rock albums - I guess American Idiot is being viewed this way - but not with this much sonic variety and sheer quantity of different ideas and hooks in play. Who'll be the next to try? For some reason I think Modest Mouse could have it in them - they've certainly done huge widescreen albums before, and have shown at least some willingness to bend on the guitar-band format. Dunno, though.

I don't really like the kitchen sink approach, though - Cave's album is more sonically cohesive than Mellon Collie could ever claim to be, and a lot stronger for it. I much prefer Mellon Collie in its truncated form; I would skip around anyway listening to the whole thing.

What would you suggest to take the place of "Stumbleine" as a slower transitional track to "Ruby" anyway?

second the praise of abbatoir blues/lyre of orpheus.

Interesting that you draw a comparison between "Soma" and "We Only Come Out at Night," b/c "Soma" = EPIC GUITAR FREAKOUT. "Porcelina" would seem like a more obvious choice, but I think I understand yr choice.

HOLLA BACK STAN I GOT U COVERED!!!!!!!!

They supposedly had 45 songs going into the studio.

Just a totally played out venture, Darcy and Johnny Aha were nowhere to be heard from.

I think "We Only Come Out at Night" relates more to the first 3:00 and last :45 of "Soma" than to the guitar parts in the middle - I was really trying to capture the overall mood of the song, and I remember "Soma" as a come-down in the wake of the bombastic high of "Disarm" more so than a guitar song, believe it or not.

No, they had a lot more. I've heard 'em.

28 songs on Mellon Collie, plus 21 Corgan or Iha songs that ended up being b-sides . Damn, that's enough songs for four full length albums!

But yeah, they needed an editor for this album. I always thought the second disc was much stronger than the first. I would take...

Cupid de Locke, Galpagos, and Porcelina off the first disc.

Thirty-Three, In the Arms of Sleep, 1979, Stumbeline, X.Y.U. (maybe), We Only Come Out at Night, Lily, By Starlight off of the second.

That comes out to about 52 minutes, and a much less rocking album. But to my ears at least, the more rocking Pumpkins songs are the ones that have dated the worst. The guitar histrionics don't really blow me away like they used to, and that's when Corgan tends to bust out his most embarassing lyrics. My version would come out closer to the mood of Adore, which is fine with me because I always liked Adore better than Siamese Dream or Mellon Collie or Gish.

I haven't listened to either disc of this album in forever, however, I do often listen to a mix CD I made a few years back containing a short list of their longest, most overblown songs (which are invariably my favs) - "Porcelina..." and "Through The Eyes Of A Ruby" are included (as is my other favorite ginormous Punkins jam "Starla").

Thru The Eyes of a Ruby
Soma
Silverfuck
Starla
Porcelina of the Vast Oceans

"(Aeroplane Over the Sea or something like that)"

Even better!

this is, obviously, crazy talk.

if you do not concede that Siamese Dream's roar+bluster demolishes Adores faux-goth leanings and electronic feel, you, sir, are missing out on the whole sheebang.

"No, they had a lot more. I've heard 'em."
happily, after all these years, i think i've heard a good amount of em, and have em in high quality (thank you Gravity Demos!!!! that thing slays me in many ways, but none as better {or as telling as where MCIS would go} as the indominateable 'Jackboot') which, ya know,i got that goin for me...

But Adore can never be the bad Smashing Pumpkins album because "Appels + Oranjes" PWNS PWNS PWNS

I guess I am missing out of the traditional appeal of the Smashing Pumpkins. I do have to admit that I didn't start listening to music, not even radio, until early 1998, so except for hearing Bullet with Butterfly Wings blasting out of a car passing by, I have no idea what it felt like to listen to the music when it was contemporary. By the time I got around to listening to Siamese Dream around 2000, a lot of it already sounded dated to my ears.

If there were ever an album that needed trimming more than those off Mellon Collie, it's fucking Adore for those four yawnfest songs at the end.

Agreed, except for "For Martha". That's been one of my favorite Smashing Pumpkins songs since I first heard it.

Not sure how much it counts as mainstream rock, but Worlds Apart reminded me of this album quite a bit.

i almost feel bad for people who got into SP during MCIS, they missed the good part of their career (and many will say "there's a GOOD part?!"). after the whole JImmy Debacle, it was only downhill for them to me.

"Worlds Apart reminded me of this album quite a bit."
a little, i guess. or maybe MCIS reminds me of Worlds's Apart (and quite possibly why i don't dig that album as much).

OTM
sucked then, sucks now

Ok maybe Ned or someone wld know this, but was Corgan a stan for Japan? I'm listening to "Fall in Love with Me" and it sounds like the mother source of half this album.

Been a while since I heard said song so I'm giving a listen now -- good catch! I remember Corgan mostly talking about things like Joy Division, Bauhaus and the Cure when it comes to the goth/proto-goth stuff he loved most but this would make perfect sense as something else in the mix.

For those wondering:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvxrfCm0I0s

Glad you hear it too.

The earlier Japan stuff is sometimes a blind spot for me so this is v. helpful (it's a bit like how I keep forgetting how good/weird/potentially inspiring Adam Ant's Dirk Wears White Sox is).

I can't get into Japan's first two albums at all.

ha that japan track. the round lead guitar tone + bratty vocals are v Pumpkins indeed

"Set The Ray to Jerry" is pretty Japan-ish, if I remember, in a more contemplative mode. One of two Smashing Pumpkins songs I remain nostalgic for (along with "Glynis").

When it breaks down in the chorus it isn't as evident, but the verses on that Japan song Ned posted really does sound like Smashing Pumpkins.

anyone who hates "Zero" hates rock and roll imo

i never owned it but my friend had the VHS in high school and we'd watch it all the time after school

the thing i remember watching that really got me hooked was a "videography" show on MTV where billy/james/d'arcy ran through and talked about all the videos up through melon collie.

this Apathy Video channel keeps delivering. after a 2 week break, they're back with some more gold. afaik the full tape of this show has never circulated, and the quality is much better than the only clip of it I've ever seen (Fuck You).

this show has always confounded me. they get a 40 minute set at a benefit show, play 3 singles in a row, then Fuck You... then a 20 minute Silverfuck. the swagger and gall of the Pumpkins at their peak right before the OD in New York is just stunning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u589RhkuJN0

As the original poster says, the reason it gets put down is because of Corgan's unwillingness to make an album for adults. If I had been 25 when this came out I'd probably have hated it - the bawling vocal, the post-grunge/proto-emo "you don't understand me OR MY MUSIC" white middle class ethic; the Queen/Prog-inspired pomp and circumstance. It's enough to make a man sick.

But to a 15 year old kid, this tastes like candy-apples. It is a decade old album, and in the same way that at the time we laughed at the Human League, the Smiths and Big Daddy Kane, so to do we about this in 2006. This is why it'll be critically re-evaluated in another ten years and top many a best-of list.

― wogan lenin (dog latin), Tuesday, October 10, 2006 6:54 AM (eleven years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Dog Latin was wrong - this album has never went away. It's been in "best albums you must hear before you croak" type of lists since ever.

flappy thanks for that video. hadn't heard this since i was there
27:15>29:50 wowowow

ah awesome! that must've been a crazy show, lineup was stacked

i seriously can't imagine the life of the person who only likes the quiet smashing pumpkins songs. they probably put salt in their coffee and live in a tent in a tree

― congratulations (n/a), Tuesday, November 27, 2012 11:52 AM bookmarkflaglink

i can play "here is no why" on the drums now :D

of course, next to "1979" that is probably the simplest non-synthetic drum part on this record

Tribute cover version of the full album next

the hi-hat accents on "1979" seem like they'd be tricky to pull off!

oh i guess it's the drum machine that does those:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuOFL_XU7jc

^^

and even then, hard to pull off with the same feel (drum-machine assist in the original I guess)

according to leading randos, Chamberlain didn't bother trying to do the hi-hat accents live, either

xp

i tried to drum along to "geek usa" yesterday too and it was hilarious. chamberlin is a tank

Nah JC is playing along with the drum machine on 1979, I can't listen to confirm but iirc the hi hat accent only comes in after the first stanza?

Here is No Why is so much fun to play, Brad

these are things i already implicitly knew but there's an extra reality to it when i'm trying to make my idiot arms and legs do anything he does, especially at that speed

i can play "rhinoceros" too, primarily because it's slow. it's also a blast xp

what about To Forgive? that's a great drum part

iirc the hi hat accent only comes in after the first stanza

yep

SP has like 10000000 great drum parts

hearing what JC can do with just a lil trap kit in the first sets of the pajama shows is so valuable. I think they played To Forgive in that set? or no, they alternated.

what about To Forgive? that's a great drum part

― flappy bird, Wednesday, July 15, 2020 10:16 AM (forty-five seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

i played along with it yesterday too but i'm pretty sure i severely bowdlerized it, gonna have to study further

i'm honestly proud of myself for even being able to suss out how he's playing what he's playing without drum cover videos, when i first started drumming jimmy's playing made absolutely no sense to me

i tried to drum along to "geek usa" yesterday too and it was hilarious. chamberlin is a tank

one of several SP songs I can't even passably air drum

when i hear drum rolls, i know i'm either about to cherub rock or watch pocahontas on disney+

those snare rolls during the second and third choruses of Here is No Why >>>>

great use of the Ab octave pumpkin chord in that part!

that song kicks so much ass

I haven't drummed in forever but I would love to attempt drumming 'Muzzle'. At least that first bit. I assume the logistics are a little something like

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VV5JOQyUYNg

The drums on "Jellybelly" are maniacal.

Years ago I had friends that put together a Pumpkins cover band for a benefit and I hung out at a bunch of their practices. Even just watching someone else try to learn Jimmy's parts brought me a whole new appreciation.

did they try Jellybelly? lol

yeah even the "simple" parts are deceptively complex (like To Forgive, or even the straightforward electric version of Disarm where he comes in on the second verse)

tomorrow’s just an excuse away

my 6 yr old loves "an ode to no one"