― DG, Tuesday, 13 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
substitute european for pacific/oceanic and we have Oz...
australian insomnaics let us unite, for we are part of the UK....
― Geoff, Tuesday, 13 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Mike Hanle y, Tuesday, 13 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
So maybe I'm not proud that we had an Empire, but that the one we did have was at least run well and with a semblance (and not much more) of a conscience. That said my knowledge of the actual doings and dealings of empire are more than scant so this view will not be easy to justify.
― Pete, Tuesday, 13 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Tom, Tuesday, 13 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― mark s, Tuesday, 13 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Nick, Tuesday, 13 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
Empress Of India, what about all the other colonies?
The Empress-ing (actually it may have been 1877) was basically a stunt by Disraeli to provide a big excuse for street parties and parades, to cover up the fact that he didn't have much legislation on the books. This is all from memory, history fans, feel free to correct. It was controversial in places anyway and wd have been more so if he'd tried to chuck Australia, etc. in too.
― RickyT, Tuesday, 13 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Canada aka your ex-bitch, Tuesday, 13 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Kim, Tuesday, 13 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― chris, Tuesday, 13 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 13 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Sterling Clover, Tuesday, 13 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
I don't get it. Does that mean America is Ringo Starr?
― Trevor, Tuesday, 13 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
I don't approve or disapprove of the Empire: it's just something of our past that doesn't personally fascinate me that much, but I accept it as a fact and as a part of its time. Although Britain has redefined itself much more successfully than many outside it think, I would say that imperial values were influential on the BBC and on certain newspapers for longer than they should have been (and sadness over loss of empire still partially fuels some papers: it'll be interesting what happens at the Daily Mail, say, when a younger man succeeds Paul Dacre).
― Robin Carmody, Tuesday, 13 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Bill, Tuesday, 13 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
"WITH YOUR ARMIES".
― Maria, Tuesday, 13 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
anybody got any recs for a good history of the British Empire?
― Οὖτις, Friday, 26 June 2015 22:26 (eight years ago) link
i liked piers brendon's <i>decline and fall</i>. mostly 19c tho.
― difficult listening hour, Friday, 26 June 2015 22:29 (eight years ago) link
whoops. i've been writing copy all morning for an entity that likes angle brackets.
― difficult listening hour, Friday, 26 June 2015 22:30 (eight years ago) link
love these dudes
― irl lol (darraghmac), Friday, 26 June 2015 22:31 (eight years ago) link
will check out brendon thx dlh
― Οὖτις, Friday, 26 June 2015 22:41 (eight years ago) link
started Brendon book last night, so far so awesome thx for the rec!
― Οὖτις, Friday, 10 July 2015 16:26 (eight years ago) link
I have not read it yet but have heard good reports about his The Dark Valley: A Panorama of the 1930s books as well.
― xelab, Friday, 10 July 2015 22:18 (eight years ago) link
book, I meant to say.
So I've been watching Simon Schama's A History Of Britain. I gather he's not very well liked 'round these parts, but I'd assumed he's at least a reasonable barometer of how mainstream British society views itself.
Last episode was called "Empire Of Good Intentions" and for the first half hour or so, Schama speaks from what I have to assume is the perspective of the Victorians he's analysing, explaining how they viewed Empire as a stepping stone towards giving countries control of themselves after "civilizing" them. Schama does go into the atrocities that followed, but the idea that this whole missionary ideology was basically an add-on for people to feel good about themselves while looting and pillaging half the world only gets mentioned in one sentence, handwaved away with a "maybe", and at the end of it Shama suggests that, despite all their failings, we should still believe in some version of their ideal of harmony between cultures, not just in foreign lands but here in the UK, as we have such a huge immigrant population (to be clear: I don't think he's advocating Victorian-style thinking on this matter, just trying to fit the Victorians into some narrative of racial understanding?)
Anyway, it all felt very strange to me and I'd like to ask some brits: is this close to official opinion on the matter? Is this what you learn in school?
― Daniel_Rf, Sunday, 18 June 2017 10:55 (six years ago) link
Other than a term covering the East India Company, I don't recall really learning anything about the British Empire at school and I'd be surprised if my experience was particularly atypical. You might get something about what a jolly good job of abolishing slavery the U.K. did. The biggest barrier to having a general public position on imperialism is probably that it isn't really given a great deal of thought.
Most polls seem to suggest that the Victorian fig leaf narrative about civilising the world is still, by far, the most followed - though it would be interesting to see whether that still holds true for under-30s.
― Wag1 Shree Rajneesh (ShariVari), Sunday, 18 June 2017 11:04 (six years ago) link
schama is great at starting chapters and terrible at ending them IMO: he can find a fabulous, crunchy, often funny in medias res]anecdote that contains all the clashing elements of the story he's telling -- but by the end everything is tidied off into snoozesome platitudes
i think "empire: it had bad stuff but also good stuff"is pretty much the platonic essence of what i mean re the latter (though i have not read this particular book, and don't plan to) (was there a related tv series? i watched some of that, until i realised i was sighing far too heavily)
as for the former: in his book abt "the gothic", ss begins with the tale of hugh walpole, the man who built strawberry hill and spearheaded the gothic revival in the 18th century: walpole and his bf went to visit swizterland, to gaze awestruck at snowy peaks and dark forests and cataracts, the very picture of the sublime. as their carriage arrived at the first very mountainside inn, and their stepped out, their little poodle (named "TORY"!) ran around happily yapping -- until a huge wolf rushed out of the murk and the trees and ate tory whole
^^^this is v good obv, but the book as a whole instead simply dissolves into unmemorable nothings, as does his book on the french revolution. basically he is a FALSE WHIG and i DISCARD him
― mark s, Sunday, 18 June 2017 11:08 (six years ago) link
to listen to him talk i guess my dad was brought up at a time when he was taught and believed the "mission to civilize" bollocks. i don't remember doing much stuff explicitly about the Empire at school. my guess is in terms of the "official position" is that most people don't have one, and those who do will be split between "it was horrible" and "WE ARE ENGLAND WE DO WHAT WE LIKE"
― pray for BoJo (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 18 June 2017 11:21 (six years ago) link
mark otm about Schama, way too limp to be credible. Norman Davies is much better, at least on England's "inner" colonialism, tho not without his own faults.
― pray for BoJo (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 18 June 2017 11:22 (six years ago) link
As empires go we weren't too bad, look at the Spanish/ French/ Belgian etc., seems a pretty ingrained attitude.
― Duncan Disorderly (Tom D.), Sunday, 18 June 2017 11:25 (six years ago) link
Also, despite the Empire being stuffed full of Scotsmen on the make/take it's greeted with deafening silence up there.
― Duncan Disorderly (Tom D.), Sunday, 18 June 2017 11:27 (six years ago) link
Yep. iirc, colonialism, India aside, is taught in the broader context of 'the race for Africa' or whatever rather than specific analysis of British participation - which does tend to lend itself to following the path of 'the British built railways and the Belgians went round chopping people's ears off'.
Looking at some recent spec papers, colonialism doesn't feature at all at GCSE level, so is only covered at optional A-Level.
― Wag1 Shree Rajneesh (ShariVari), Sunday, 18 June 2017 11:32 (six years ago) link
As Alex Salmond might say, Gove must be beelin'.
― Duncan Disorderly (Tom D.), Sunday, 18 June 2017 11:38 (six years ago) link
even sweden did a bit of colonizing as the dominant scandinavian power.
― Roberto Spiralli, 20. april 2018 17:34 (six hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
fuck the world. no.
― Frederik B, Friday, 20 April 2018 22:00 (six years ago) link
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_colonial_empire
― (Henry) Green container bin with face (Tom D.), Friday, 20 April 2018 22:07 (six years ago) link
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_scheme
― (Henry) Green container bin with face (Tom D.), Friday, 20 April 2018 22:08 (six years ago) link
Danish vikings trashed the place near where I was born, which granted me the opportunity to run an April fools story in my newspaper about a Danish viking helmet being found in our soil (our soil being polder land, reclaimed long after the vikings actually set sail here). The supposed exhibit of said helmet attracted a big enough crowd for it to be a successful April fools gag, and some people I know here still hold the Danish accountable for whatever insufferable fate seemingly bestowed upon them. It is a lie, and yet it is the truth. I am at peace with both coexisting.
― lbi's life of limitless european glamour (Le Bateau Ivre), Friday, 20 April 2018 22:16 (six years ago) link
Tom, I don't think Fred is doubting that Scandinavia has colonialist skeletons in its closet so much as taking offense at casting Sweden as its dominant power.
― Daniel_Rf, Friday, 20 April 2018 22:24 (six years ago) link
I know.
― (Henry) Green container bin with face (Tom D.), Friday, 20 April 2018 22:32 (six years ago) link
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DUzzw1IW4AE9hdO.jpg30 year War era Europe is an absolute fucking clusterfuck. I really admire historians who can talk authoritatively about all the different players on the board. In this pic here is the size of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in 1619 ... absolutely huge!
― calzino, Friday, 20 April 2018 22:36 (six years ago) link
scottish people still cheap to this day after being burned financially with the hapless darien scheme
― Louis Jägermeister (jim in vancouver), Friday, 20 April 2018 22:38 (six years ago) link
We've never been good away from home.
― (Henry) Green container bin with face (Tom D.), Friday, 20 April 2018 22:47 (six years ago) link
the lads got over there and were out on the beach getting stramashed, turning lobster-pink, and getting heatstroke.
they'd have fallen out of balconies to their deaths if they could only have built some multistory dwellings.
― Louis Jägermeister (jim in vancouver), Friday, 20 April 2018 22:53 (six years ago) link
I presume the Rangers fans were all rejoicing + singing a good ol' rendition of No Surrender to the IRA when the darien scheme went tits up!
― calzino, Friday, 20 April 2018 22:54 (six years ago) link
England has been a cancer on civilization and I'll sleep better when it ceases to exist
― Cortez the Self-Harmer (Noodle Vague), Friday, 20 April 2018 22:56 (six years ago) link
Like Nazi Germany but for 300 years and I'm pushed but truth
― Cortez the Self-Harmer (Noodle Vague), Friday, 20 April 2018 22:57 (six years ago) link
I typed pished not pushed
― Cortez the Self-Harmer (Noodle Vague), Friday, 20 April 2018 22:58 (six years ago) link
It bad.
― calzino, Friday, 20 April 2018 23:01 (six years ago) link
Doggerland Empire was probably more chill, but other island nation with ropey evil empire past Japan, bad as well.
― calzino, Friday, 20 April 2018 23:05 (six years ago) link
Powerful island nations vs continental powers late to the colonial game = fuck knows they are all shit, but arguably the UK were shit for much longer.
― calzino, Friday, 20 April 2018 23:15 (six years ago) link
Soul brothers me and thee
There's always mitigating arguments from colonialist cunts
They're cunts' arguments
― Cortez the Self-Harmer (Noodle Vague), Friday, 20 April 2018 23:59 (six years ago) link
of course every human tribe of the past probably had times of raiding and stealing nearby territories for the past 4 millions years
― Rabbit Control (Latham Green), Monday, 23 April 2018 18:32 (six years ago) link
piers brendon's "decline and fall of the British Empire"
this book is great btw
― Οὖτις, Monday, 23 April 2018 18:35 (six years ago) link
Fast forward to today "decline and fall of the American Empire"
― Rabbit Control (Latham Green), Monday, 23 April 2018 18:40 (six years ago) link
well we only managed 80 years or so, not bad eh chaps cheerio
― Οὖτις, Monday, 23 April 2018 19:19 (six years ago) link
https://www.penguin.co.uk/content/dam/catalogue/pim/editions/407/9781846147753/cover.jpg
this sounds interesting, from what I can gather from reviews he eschews much conventional wisdom and hammers the fuck out of Blair and Thatcher.
― calzino, Friday, 29 June 2018 07:26 (five years ago) link
How British
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2023/jul/05/industrial-revolution-iron-method-taken-from-jamaica-briton
― xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 5 July 2023 09:58 (ten months ago) link
Dichotomy of literally wouldn't be here without it and disgusting offensively exploitative system.
Probably wouldn't be here either.
Grew up in its wake probably just at a point of transition. With a racist grandfather and then education payed for by the UN.
& now reading Walter Rodney who I should have read much sooner.
― Stevo, Wednesday, 5 July 2023 14:41 (ten months ago) link
Another American pipe dream (mine, from group email yesterday):
Happy 4th, although I've recently become a British loyalist, because for all its sins and shortcomings, the Empire managed to end slavery w/o equiv of US Civil War. If things could have been worked out soon enough, maybe no American Revolutionary War either---and if we were part of the Empire, then the Commonwealth, who knows what other crazy evil shit that the world might have been spared. Of course, with American resources, who knows what else the Empire might have gotten into, for a while. But still, I think history might have turned out for the better, in a very non-utopian way (wild understatement, yes)...
― dow, Thursday, 6 July 2023 01:13 (ten months ago) link
"British loyalist" in alternate universe 18th-20th Century Empire-to-Commonwealth terms only!
― dow, Thursday, 6 July 2023 01:27 (ten months ago) link
Well we all know who was responsible for slavery in the US in the first place. Few things are more revolting than the British patting themselves on the back for "ending slavery".
― Foot Heads Arms Body (Tom D.), Thursday, 6 July 2023 06:38 (ten months ago) link
America has set the bar very low in that respect, and all related.
― dow, Thursday, 6 July 2023 18:30 (ten months ago) link
Being British is like being German if the Third Reich had literally lasted for a thousand years.
― you gotta roll with the pączki to get to what's real (snoball), Thursday, 6 July 2023 18:36 (ten months ago) link
I'm anglophone, but I sure ain't no anglophile.
― more difficult than I look (Aimless), Thursday, 6 July 2023 19:47 (ten months ago) link
theyre not awful lads individually i blame the schools
― Ár an broc a mhic (darraghmac), Thursday, 6 July 2023 20:10 (ten months ago) link
Another American pipe dream (mine, from group email yesterday): _Happy 4th, although I've recently become a British loyalist, because for all its sins and shortcomings, the Empire managed to end slavery w/o equiv of US Civil War. If things could have been worked out soon enough, maybe no American Revolutionary War either---and if we were part of the Empire, then the Commonwealth, who knows what other crazy evil shit that the world might have been spared. Of course, with American resources, who knows what else the Empire might have gotten into, for a while. But still, I think history might have turned out for the better, in a very non-utopian way (wild understatement, yes)..._
― half the population ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ (gyac), Friday, 7 July 2023 15:03 (nine months ago) link