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― max, Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:28 (thirteen years ago) link
Ok, so apply everything I said to j0hn. It serves as the same critique.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:28 (thirteen years ago) link
Er, Smith. Sorry.
oh i like where this is going
― goole, Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:29 (thirteen years ago) link
I should probably just drop the whole thing.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:29 (thirteen years ago) link
you are assuming that the American people will somehow magically stop being a large group of self-involved xenophobic assholes and care that the government is using the military to hurt people tens of thousands of miles away
like, no one will care unless those people also kill a whole bunch of US military men, in which case the reaction won't be "oh we should pull out of there", it will be "we should thoroughly destroy them"
― measuring of the waist (HI DERE), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:29 (thirteen years ago) link
J0hn, I think it's pretty clear that's where his positions lead him.
I want to be clear and open with you about how I feel about this line, and why I think you say it: it means you don't have to answer anything directly from him, or from anybody who persistently expresses total & permanent suspicion of the admin (or of all admins). your position is essentially an elegant ad-hom. It is not at all clear that "that's where his positions lead him"; it would be odd, indeed, for a person whose positions lead him in a clear way to never articulate that position, even once. Your accusation is essentially "you want a Messiah, you just don't know that that's what your positions mean"; what an insulting accusation that is to make, and baseless.
― gross rainbow of haerosmith (underrated aerosmith albums I have loved), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:29 (thirteen years ago) link
Ok dude -- how do you feel we should get from here to there?
― Mordy, Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:30 (thirteen years ago) link
You're right, maybe there's another ahistorical break, but I think my critique is super solid and not ad-hom at all. You are looking to alter the rules of the world but you won't say how we're going to do it.
I don't understand how thinking, "Since politics is a dirty business, we shouldn't trust anything our legislators and presidents say" is synonymous with "I have a quixotic, Emerald City vision of what perfect representative democracy looks like."
― balls and adieu (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:31 (thirteen years ago) link
oh man you should not get me wrong, I think we are twinned on our actually optimism - I don't think most people will do anything besides eat more pizza & I'll probably be one of the pizza-eating multitude myself - I think I'm maybe a tad less convinced of the total narcissism of the species than you are, but just a tad, and that's just 'cause I like poetry
― gross rainbow of haerosmith (underrated aerosmith albums I have loved), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:31 (thirteen years ago) link
it's a nice thought to think that Americans would only be nice and peaceful if they knew THE WHOLE STORY but that is ignoring both the culture of willful ignorance that fuels our society and the smug, authoritarian principles on which our country was founded
― measuring of the waist (HI DERE), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:32 (thirteen years ago) link
That's not the synonym, Alfred. The synonym is "Since these politicians are completely corrupt and can't do any good" = "Some other politician will be better, who isn't here right now," = "Who will be coming in the future." If you started with, "I'll work with what I have," then you'd leave in a different direction.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:33 (thirteen years ago) link
Some other politician will be better, who isn't here right now,"
No one here has said this!
― balls and adieu (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:34 (thirteen years ago) link
for fuck's sake Mordy, stop trying to win ILX
― measuring of the waist (HI DERE), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:34 (thirteen years ago) link
this question 1) doesn't pertain to the discussion, and is a separate disccusion; 2) doesn't preclude or invalidate even one criticism: "don't complain unless you have a solution!" is woeful management-speak; and 3) is a dishonest conversational move. I don't have any solutions at all, I am just a guy eating a pizza. Do you know what my lack of solutions says qualitatively about any criticism I might make? Nothing whatsoever, that's what. You're advancing the "don't criticize the music unless you can make better music yourself" model of politics. It is absurd, in my opinion, in both spheres.
― gross rainbow of haerosmith (underrated aerosmith albums I have loved), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:34 (thirteen years ago) link
I mean, the real critique is, "Great, you're idealistic. Who the fuck cares?" because the idealism as practiced that way has no impact on the world. It's just screaming into the wind, or to ask what the stakes are of that idealism, it's just to look good on a message board. You're not changing the world by saying how bad the US government is, you're just complaining.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:35 (thirteen years ago) link
If you have the time to peruse those exhausting 2008 political threads, you'll find few Obama "stans" – most people said he was the best candidate to come along in their lifetimes, with the talent to keep some longstanding promises. That's not at all the same as thinking there's a magical candidate out there. That's how Republicans think: they're always searching for another Reagan.
― balls and adieu (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:35 (thirteen years ago) link
btw the pizza in my examples is entirely theoretical, there is no pizza where I'm at, much to my dissatisfaction. but maybe I shouldn't complain that there's no pizza here unless I have an idea about how I might go about making one myself.
― gross rainbow of haerosmith (underrated aerosmith albums I have loved), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:36 (thirteen years ago) link
That's really what I should post whenever one of these discussions come up. "Yep, morally rightitude on ILX! Rock on!" because clearly any attempt to ever engage that idealism into questions about practical practice are always hunted down for being too conservative.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:36 (thirteen years ago) link
If you have the time to peruse those exhausting 2008 political threads, you'll find few Obama "stans" – most people said he was the best candidate to come along in their lifetimes, with the talent to keep some longstanding promises. That's not at all the same as thinking there's a magical candidate out there.
The problem, actually, with political discourse around here is that other people then flipped that around to say that everyone thinks Obama is infallible and totally the magic n*gger we can believe in, which seriously pisses me off every time I see it.
― measuring of the waist (HI DERE), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:38 (thirteen years ago) link
that's how Republicans think: they're always searching for another Reagan.
― balls and adieu (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, July 27, 2010 3:35 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark
long may they search! fred thompson '12
― goole, Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:38 (thirteen years ago) link
Like, when I'm thinking through these issues, I'm not trying to think through them like a man eating a pizza. Maybe that's the big difference. From the pizza-perspective, it's easy to just take the hardline on any given moral issue. "Should we make all information free? Sure, why the fuck not. Information rocks."
― Mordy, Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:38 (thirteen years ago) link
I mean, the real critique is, "Great, you're idealistic. Who the fuck cares?" because the idealism as practiced that way has no impact on the world. It's just screaming into the wind, or to ask what the stakes are of that idealism, it's just to look good on a message board. You're not changing the world by saying how bad the US government is, you're just complaining
Yeah but you only use this argument to duck out of defending positions like "it's OK to censor information that might be damaging at some future point to theoretical negotiating interests with unknown parties." It is not "idealism" to call people out on their bullshit; your cries of "idealism," again, are just ad-homs meant to discredit the people making reasonably formed cases against your position.
― gross rainbow of haerosmith (underrated aerosmith albums I have loved), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:38 (thirteen years ago) link
oy
― max, Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:39 (thirteen years ago) link
You're not calling me out on anything tho, Smith. You're just stating that my position doesn't hem to some perfect unconsidered consideration about information. No law will ever be instituted that says, "All information is free." That's not how any of this works. So my trying to figure out what information should be free, shouldn't, why power may require some sorts of information to maintain power, whether that power is good, and to what extent -- that's all thinking through the actual implications. You saying, "the principle is it should be," is reading off the ten commandments.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:40 (thirteen years ago) link
and let's be clear, Mordy. You are taking the hard line, you just don't want to cop to it. Your hard line is "if there is doubt, we must trust the state." That's as pizzariffic as anything else on this thread.
― gross rainbow of haerosmith (underrated aerosmith albums I have loved), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:40 (thirteen years ago) link
I didn't say that once.
this entire fucking thread is like a textbook definition of people taking hard-line immutable positions, let's not kid ourselves
― measuring of the waist (HI DERE), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:41 (thirteen years ago) link
― measuring of the waist (HI DERE), Tuesday, July 27, 2010 1:34 PM
Mordy, I am personally really sick of you shitting all over every single ILX politics thread with your crypto-fascist bullshit, please stop.
― bug holocaust (sleeve), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:41 (thirteen years ago) link
Mordz I think it's pretty clear that's where your positions lead you.
― gross rainbow of haerosmith (underrated aerosmith albums I have loved), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:42 (thirteen years ago) link
HI DERE, I disagree. I think that's what the argument has been about from the beginning -- whether you should be taking hard-line immutable positions or not. I think saying WikiLeaks may be good or bad depending on the circumstances is about as mutable as position as can be posited.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:42 (thirteen years ago) link
No law will ever be instituted that says, "All information is free." That's not how any of this works.
It's becoming true whether there is a law or not. It's the long march of information technology towards more and more transparent systems, from being in the hands of only the Pharaoh's private scribes to where we are now.
― Beach Pomade (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:42 (thirteen years ago) link
I'm exempt from this charge because of my impeccable sartorial style tho right? that was my understanding of the ground rules going forward
Hey sleeve, you're right, I apologize for cluttering the thread with my crypto-fascist bullshit. I'll stop.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:43 (thirteen years ago) link
calling obama 'a pharaoh' is sorta racist dude
― iatee, Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:43 (thirteen years ago) link
I suspect the american public would be more inspired to action if they found out about bad stuff in strategic doses rather than a constant bombardment of transparency, which would obviously fatigue anyone, and this sort of dynamic is at least recognized by wikileaks, who chose to release their info accordingly.
There was an interesting article on spycraft where the more information any side got, the less reliably they could determine the truth of anything, to the point where it would have been paradoxically better not to engage in espionage at all, and I feel like we are entering a climate where things constantly being leaked do more to obfuscate than clarify, and one in which the right wing is more adept at maneuvering.
― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:43 (thirteen years ago) link
um just to be very clear here, I am not at all opposed to Mordy arguing his political viewpoint; I am opposed to him inventing positions for other posters in an attempt to shame them away from threads
so, like, please do not quote me if you are looking for backup to bolster your calling someone fascist
― measuring of the waist (HI DERE), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:44 (thirteen years ago) link
All this talk of cheeseburgers and pizzas is making me mad-hungry, gents. Shut the fuck up.
― balls and adieu (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:44 (thirteen years ago) link
guys can't we just all agree that pizza/the Beatles are awesome
― Moshy Star (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:45 (thirteen years ago) link
I kind of want to create an I Love Politics board and give it the board description "Shut the fuck up."
― measuring of the waist (HI DERE), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:45 (thirteen years ago) link
the beatles suck! ffs shakey. er....
― Take my hand, we'll make it I swear (Pashmina), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:46 (thirteen years ago) link
gonna start a political arguments tournament so we can figure out canon politics
― iatee, Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:47 (thirteen years ago) link
Your hard line is "if there is doubt, we must trust the state."
Isn't this kind of implicit in being a law-abiding citizen, btw?
― measuring of the waist (HI DERE), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:47 (thirteen years ago) link
I read "canon politics" as "mushroom pizza."
― balls and adieu (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:47 (thirteen years ago) link
ok HI DERE I concede your point about people being optimists
until and unless <50% know what real hunger feels like, the American public will not do anything or demand anything no matter what their leaders do. people are motivated largely by self-interest, and their interests are in remaining fed & clothed & entertained.
― gross rainbow of haerosmith (underrated aerosmith albums I have loved), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:48 (thirteen years ago) link
Like, if you think the gov't is engaging in shitty activities bankrolled by your tax dollars, yet you continue to pay your taxes, how exactly are you NOT trusting the state?
― measuring of the waist (HI DERE), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:50 (thirteen years ago) link
I don't think so - this is a well-aimed question though and I'd have to think about it. My initial response is that "the state" that governs the legal action of citizens in their daily lives is maybe a different entity from the one which discloses, or seeks not to disclose, information about itself. But this seems like a pretty complicated distinction to make, and since I'm posting from the near future, distinctions are blurring for me
― gross rainbow of haerosmith (underrated aerosmith albums I have loved), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:51 (thirteen years ago) link
also I think you meant ">50%"
― measuring of the waist (HI DERE), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:51 (thirteen years ago) link
well let's be plain about that: one pays taxes because they will punish the shit out of you if you don't. I would love to withhold money from the state until it agrees to provide full health care for all, and to fully fund the arts, besides! but they will freeze your bank account if you try that shit, so you gotta walk the straight and narrow. I don't have the stomach to see what the state will do if I get too principled about money they consider theirs.
― gross rainbow of haerosmith (underrated aerosmith albums I have loved), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 20:53 (thirteen years ago) link