Tragic Football Stories - Let us Kick Around the misshapen Jabulani that is English football right here

there aren't really any lessons for england in their success because england will never play that football, and will be lucky to develop a single player in a generation who gets near their level of technique and football-sense

― nakhchivan, Friday, 23 July 2010 13:09 (19 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_rpHP5-LnPcM/Sx6etA1GJLI/AAAAAAAABXk/dMDeTmJmeu4/s1600/wilshere_wenger.jpg

SUP Y'ALLLLLLLLL

xpost

Yeah this is what I think. Don't really buy into culture as an expression of National Spirit or some other 19th century nuttiness, think cultures can be changed if the will is there.

Of course I don't doubt for a second that in England's case, the will ain't there.

Do you think, in theory, that it's exceptionally difficult to develop players with technique and football-sense?

― flashing drill + penis fan (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 July 2010 13:13 (12 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

brazil and holland do this all the time and other countries are catching them up so no.

― one man meme-denier - jol in? (a hoy hoy), Friday, July 23, 2010 12:28 PM (34 minutes ago) Bookmark

a hoy hoy otm here.

Also think tomofthenest is correct about the culture thing.
I would settle for England developing players who don't mind receiving the ball when marked. Also players happy to give the ball to teammates who AREN'T in space confident that they will manage to retain possession. A lot of the time with England their passing looks so poor, and they revert to the long ball so often, not because the players are terrible at finding space necessarily but because they seem to rule out passing short to anyone if an opponent is in the general vicinity, oddly enough they seem happy to pump a long ball to someone similarly marked so go figure.

A pretty long and relatively unbroken stint of English club success in the Champions League has fooled much of the English footballing establishment into believing that everything's fine.

If we go four or five years without English clubs getting much further than the quarter or semi-final then that delusion might slip, but the clubs will spend big to avoid that happening, and probably not on English players.

scared to bore people != successfully completing 5 yards passes

― one man meme-denier - jol in? (a hoy hoy), Friday, 23 July 2010 Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Its all varying the pace and number of passes, sometimes its 5 x 5 yeard passes, at others 30. Ultimately => whatever is necessary.

Part of the reason things don't change is prem league resistance but the other part is because we are mostly fed on championship type stuff which people really like (and is exciting as spectacle). That brings in the bacon, making the championship bigger than the Bundesliga, its all good except the once-in-four-years when Eng perform badly in a one month international competition and the fans beat themselves about until the end of August or so.

I can see other countries overtaking Eng because football isn't as big a show so there is less focus on 'product' and more room to get a good team with good technique playing well together.

Ultimately the way Eng may not be 'an expression of the national spirit' but its certainly an expression of the ways things are in the particular country.

Clubs like Doncaster or to an extent Notts Forest have played a more measured passing game in the Championship of late and I don't think it's had a negative effect on their gates tho?

I would settle for England developing players who don't mind receiving the ball when marked. Also players happy to give the ball to teammates who AREN'T in space confident that they will manage to retain possession.

ties directly to technique, movement

also, i suppose, the propensity of your opponents to press. see- spanish league, midfielders, bovvered?

NV - But what if a lot of clubs lower down adopted a diff style, diff formations, etc. and toned down on what was described as 'stupid' in that F365 article?

Also I don't know what the football is like in Italian, German or Dutch lower leagues. I don't wanna get down and blame things on the championship in particular, but a wider look across the whole of eng football has to be taken.

i don't know that i'd describe forest's passing game as 'measured' tho- they're a very attack minded team, they just keep the ball on the ground.

Do you think, in theory, that it's exceptionally difficult to develop players with technique and football-sense?

― flashing drill + penis fan (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 July 2010 13:13 (1 hour ago)

to the level of iniesta, yeah

i'd say that depends on the national emphasis on technique (for w/e cultural reasons) and specifically the barcelona school which takes it to an extreme, so they can field an entire midfield of players who would be star #10s for the other big nations

even brazil, w/ 190m ppl and their illustrious history/enthusiasm for football only have a few super technical players (diego, robinho, neymar maybe) and even then they lack the efficiency and system-oriented play of x + i et al

i think you're probably correct w/ the hope that england can just develop similar types of players but with more comfortable close control and more patience, like if you want to field a team of big lads who can kick ppl, at least ensure they can 'play a bit' to use the telling cliché

germany are a far better exemplar than spain for england to follow, if there is the will (probably not as you say)

england fwd with the best touch- k davies, btw

Yeah I think expecting England to become a completely different footballing nation is wildly optimistic and unnecessary, but the gaping absence of fundamentals surely has got to be addressed. Thing is that it has to be the FA that takes that lead and I don't really see the FA as leaders.

i waver a bit re damning the english for lacking core skills when i think of a team like doncaster - regular players passing it around like buggery purely as a result of o'driscoll's bloody-mindedness on the training pitch.

to a lesser extent (more foreign players) you couldve said the same in recent years about mowbray at wba, or even magilton's one crazy month where it all went right at qpr - truly startling how quickly they reverted to donkeys once they lost their nerve and the manager started headbutting them.

A pretty long and relatively unbroken stint of English club success in the Champions League has fooled much of the English footballing establishment into believing that everything's fine.

If we go four or five years without English clubs getting much further than the quarter or semi-final then that delusion might slip, but the clubs will spend big to avoid that happening, and probably not on English players.

― Matt DC, Friday, 23 July 2010 14:14 (37 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Ummm... Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal and Spurs - the top 4, if not the big 4 - have spent the past ten years pumping money into youth development and are starting to see the effects of it (United's history of it, Arsenal is obv with 400 tricky midfielders, ok I dunno about Chelsea but they are letting go of a lot of 'big names' and not buying any replacements so its possible that opportunities for a Mancienne or whoever could open up?, and Spurs is Spurs, good w/ defenders, that Danny Rose fella etc.)

xpost

Felt like at QPR you had a nice compact pitch that suited the passing game but it went to shit when you had to play away. Could be wrong about that but I guess the possibility of being out-muscled and out-hoofed on a huge pitch is one of the factors that makes it risky for teams to try and play it cute?

look at fulham- fantastic footballers? not really. good tidy possession football? yep.

its possible that opportunities for a Mancienne or whoever could open up?

bollocks to that I think they should sell him :D

nakh- kaka? ronaldinho? are these not surperior technical players? anyway yeah I agree that Germany should be the prototype to follow. That team still players with all the 'English fundamentals' 'national pride and passion', 'aggression', fast pace counter attacking, strength etc. but they have... you know... basic skill and technically ability and an understanding of basic tactics that we so dearly lack.

i'm not sure it's technical ability so much as technical thought. most of england's attacking players can trap a ball (lol heskey) but they don't always (in fact pretty rarely) trap it with intent, already moving in a considered or preparing for the next pass- as xavi, iniesta, modric do

yeah that is otm

English lumpish big strong we'll-worry-about-technique-and-possession-when-we-see-what-height-you-finish-up-son youth development has obviously been a thing for a long long time.

A long long time, like the entire history of English football basically?

I've been reading Jonathan Wilson's new one The Anatomy of England - was going to save my review 'til I'm finished - but he quotes liberally from the press at the time and these arguments have been going on forever, since at least 1929 when England lost in Spain. It basically plays out the same every time - horror and embarrassment, then putting it down to luck, then demanding the players show more pride & effort, then scapegoating a foreigner, then back to believing we're the best in the world. Until the next time.

I'm suspecting it's the insularity of the domestic game that means we always settle at the last stage. Nobody really cares about international success enough, except for two weeks every four years, and that isn't enough to justify proper change.

The book's brilliant btw.

don't think kaká is quite at the iniesta level technically, but he is at least as great a player (superior physically, more direct and efficient)

ronaldinho yeah, but he probably won't do anything significant for brazil ever again

d'you reckon printing this thread and sending it to the FA counts as a job application?

obv no foreigners, but for the rest of you

Technique - it was notable for me, watching Holland-Brazil, how Kuyt could more than hold his own in the little no-space-quick-passing scenes that that game sometimes devolved into. Kuyt! The guy gets derided as a donkey here, evaluated only for his goalscoring ameliorated by his workrate - I couldn't even tell you what his technique's like 'til that game.

it's shit, sorry

every dog tho

No way xp - Capello will get two more years, then it'll be back to looking for passion when England fail again.

I look at Steven Gerrard and especially Frank Lampard and I don't really imagine they lack the basic touch and technique to pass it properly, it's that English players are undisciplined and lack composure and that's where all the problems arise.

Kuyt's touch and technique aren't great, but those around him make up for that imo. his movement and anticipation of those around him at that level is good though- but don't do much for you at a team where everything's based around a player called stevie me.

xpost

Perhaps, perhaps not. If you lack the composure or discipline to be an effective passer of the ball then you're simply not an effective passer, imo. Having the right mindset is technique too, really.

Have we made some proper time to have a good laugh at Gerrard's pretence of "choosing" to stay at Liverpool btw? Or am I invoking the Furies one more time?

i've been trying to leave it, tbh. also liverpool 100% more likeable now under new management, regardless of players and argumental fans.

Ha, only cos you're sure they'll fail

I'd forgotten how sympathetic I was to Liverpool prior to Rafa's reign of terror. Getting rid of Gerrard wd have completed the rehabilitation tho.

I don't think liverpool will 'fail' under roy, but jeez what's 'fail'? they'll not qualify for CL next season, but they'll be moving in a better direction than they have been for a while i think.

Liverpool will qualify for the CL next season

sorry, wrong thread

lol

Mertesacker Emptiness

Just noticed this. A+++ would lol again

how many threads do you guys need to flog the same dead horse? seriously it's like groundhog day around here, 8 threads with the same 2 opinions.

Have we made some proper time to have a good laugh at Gerrard's pretence of "choosing" to stay at Liverpool btw?

have we made some proper time to say something bad about someone based on no fucking idea either way cos who the fuck has a clue about who did or didn't bid for anyone? if not RLOL.

and this goes for all gossip, not just gerrard.;

footballers what vile human beings, they can only aspire to be messageboard posters with all the associated achievements.

Man, these threads seriously need your moderating grumpy old man influence for balance, but I think Stevie can probably handle a bit of criticism to balance out the boneheaded "England superstars" bullshit hype that flourishes in plenty of mainstream media all year round. Think we all know when we're being unnecessarily scurrilous but personally the fact that I've not had a career as a Premier League footballer and serial failure at International level isn't gonna stop me from discussing people who have. Because I'm interested and because I spend enough time watching and thinking about footie.

Nice to see "you're all just jealous" get a run out off the bench tho.

Wouldn't have if it was Chelsea we were talking about, he would have still been sat there with Daniel Sturridge.

Sturridge is at Chelsea?

Criticising footy chat for being repetitive is like criticising water for being wet.

There's so much chat to be had, but there's not really that much to the game when it comes down to it, until you get into technical areas like tactics or finances or whatever. I like discussing those, but they don't really count as banter. Like I said above, even discussing what's wrong with the English game is just adding to a conversation that's been going on since at least 1929. I believe there's a back issue of Ye Private Eye from 1930 where legendary curmudgeon Mr L Garda hilariously lampoons an unfortunate correspondent who had rehashed the topic in his column the previous week.

local garda some kind of nominative determinism amirite

local garda i've got your back fwiw.

far too much b.s. over far too little substance.

i seriously don't know wtf you dudes are looking for in a football thread about england's WC failure on a message board where people basically just shoot the shit all day, and on top of that, during the football close season.

LG, you've contributed maybe a ballhair more more than the same meta complaints to any football thread this whole year, which is a real pity imo. maybe that's indicative of liverpool's season, but jeez that's a poor excuse for making the same attack every time you pop your head in the door.

there's prob too much transfer gossip, prob too much bitching about the premier league's english stars, prob too much posting of dumbass formations, prob too much dissing and not enough appreciation of the subtleties of the likes of r benitez and other very highly paid and experienced/talented professionals. prob too much of myself and a hoy hoy, in short.

but damned if i wouldn't sooner read a thesis from him on why fabregas will finish his career at arsenal than another line about how nobody on this board is qualified to lazily stick the boot in on steven fucking gerrard.