Tragic Football Stories - Let us Kick Around the misshapen Jabulani that is English football right here

seems I am on a sunday morning of reading football news-

How can England win the World Cup? They could start by asking Watford - worth a read?

half decent article on the top 4 academies producing so little for the england team

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/world-cup/academy-system-of-big-four-has-zero-impact-2029322.html

Article from F365's John Nicholson after watching England u-19's in a few games. Not promising

Pretty much sums up everything I believe about The Englolish Game.

For a second I thought this was the much-vaunted under-17s.

But here's the thing:

English lumpish big strong we'll-worry-about-technique-and-possession-when-we-see-what-height-you-finish-up-son youth development has obviously been a thing for a long long time.

But the knowledge of this as a problem has been around for probably 10-15 years now. Maybe tied to acceptance of foreign talent into the english game in a big way?

When does it start to get solved?

xp maybe Matt just answered that for me

Wouldn't be in the least surprised if the under-17s were cut from the same cloth. "Hey guyz we won this tournament against kids half our size but twice as able. Shd be no problem once we're all at the same physical level eh?"

(that said i saw england u-15's playing a few years back and they were technically superb- all boro players in the midfield iirc, including a johnson. what happens these guys?)

Allegedly the U17s can pass the ball properly, which is a good start.

Said it a month ago didn't I? 10 mediocre players with sound technical skills wd be a thousand percent improvement on the shite we've got now.

is that wolves fan or england victim speaking?

is this mentality tied to over-competitiveness at youth level? the bigger kids at 10 are more likely to win an under-11s tourney (particularly if they're played on fullsized pitches), so they get picked and developed ahead of maybe the potential Leo Messis?

xpost lol england "fan" but I don't care enough to be a victim. Wolves heading in the right direction imo

bit peeved about the whole Maierhofer debacle tho. Dude deserved a chance.

Tha article is ok but somehow also confused as to how 'fannying' they want from the kids that are coming through. Some 'sophistication' ok but not too much, y'know. Almost scared to bore people with passing.

In some ways it'll probably be a small country doing a Hungary 7-1 score at Wembley that might get the FA or someone to wake up. The problem then becomes the Premier League (the sky ad on the side of that F365 article) that will try and resist the change.

Also, there is love for the Championship, the product gets people through the gates. Wonder how that compares with lower leagues across europe.

is this mentality tied to over-competitiveness at youth level?

Yes, I think so. The excellent article on Ajax stressed the focus on individuals rather than team results- often to the extreme of entire youth teams really only existing to support the development of the one or two potential stars in it.

Almost scared to bore people with passing.

i'd say nearly 50% of the problem could broadly be aligned with this tbh.

scared to bore people != successfully completing 5 yards passes

English lumpish big strong we'll-worry-about-technique-and-possession-when-we-see-what-height-you-finish-up-son youth development has obviously been a thing for a long long time.

A long long time, like the entire history of English football basically?

In some ways it'll probably be a small country doing a Hungary 7-1 score at Wembley that might get the FA or someone to wake up.

That was 1953 remember.

Yeah but I think Ramsey's 60s team were tactically innovative and modern. Problem is we've had nobody forward-thinking in charge since then- Venables perhaps, but I hear the "Theme from Flash Harry" in my head whenever I think of the dude.

Not that that's got anything to do with his tactical nous.

was gonna say ask me would i swap arry for straight man curbishley or whoever

Dodgy geezers make the best managers, look how shit Italian football went when they tried to clean it up.

Yeah but I think Ramsey's 60s team were tactically innovative and modern

At the time, yes - but you've been playing the same way ever since! Also, Ramsey was all about hard work + organisation + fitness not flair

http://www.tvcream.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/cole.jpg

"Awight lads, vis is called ver Chwistmas Twee"

Also, Ramsey was all about hard work + organisation + fitness not flair

one out of the first three present at the WC

Hard work + organisation + fitness = Catenaccio? Works for me.

Also, Ramsey was all about hard work + organisation + fitness not flair

one out of the first three present at the WC

― "It's far from 'lol' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Friday, 23 July 2010 12:42 (40 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I can't even figure out which one you are suggesting.

lol that's whay yer shit

(I was granting them hard work, tbh)

Hard work + organisation + fitness = Catenaccio? Works for me.

Fuck yer Catenaccio

http://www.rankopedia.com/CandidatePix/32860.gif

Thinking about Spain this World Cup a lot of the outright flair players didn't really produce the results tho. Iniesta for example did a lot of that mazy ball-on-a-string shit to little effect, mostly. It was the organisation and work ethic that won them the tournament.

no....

I'm biased because I grew up watching the England vs. Scotland game every year... which was always the same... five foot nothing Scottish forwards trying to dribble their way past nine foot tall English defenders, ball playing Scottish midifeld trying to do the unfashionable thing and pass the ball run off their feet by English duracell bunnies, comedy Scottish goalkeeper, some poaching bastard like Lineker scores the only goal of the game

the truism about tiki-taka as defensive strategy kinda proved itself in the world cup.....the other side seldom wins the ball, and when they do it's largely in their own half w/ almost the entire spain team in front of them ready to recover possession

xp watching some old highlights the other day, didn't realise at the time just how good Lineker was

I'm totally a fan of tiki-taka but it seems to me that as a system it doesn't require outright flair players. Strong technique and positional sense, yeah. Jesus I would settle for (excuse pun) passable technique from an England team at the moment.

xp watching some old highlights the other day, didn't realise at the time just how good Lineker was

... great at diving, just ask Cameroon.

Germany turned things round pretty quickly, didn't they?

When did England beat them 5-1? They were fucking rubbish then.

Gay guys more open-minded, innit?

Also perhaps it had reached the point where Ballack was the albatross dragging them down. Felt the same way about Bryan Robson's entire international career tbh.

Yes. And Lamps/Stevie G?

I'm totally a fan of tiki-taka but it seems to me that as a system it doesn't require outright flair players. Strong technique and positional sense, yeah. Jesus I would settle for (excuse pun) passable technique from an England team at the moment.

xavi, iniesta, silva and villa may not be ~flair~ players in that they seldom go in for meretricious tricks, but their close control and core skills are of a rarified level that other sides can't match (except for argentina w/ messi and aguero)

there aren't really any lessons for england in their success because england will never play that football, and will be lucky to develop a single player in a generation who gets near their level of technique and football-sense

hence the abortive efforts to include 35 yr old scholes

Do you think, in theory, that it's exceptionally difficult to develop players with technique and football-sense?

I remember seeing little kids -6 or 7 yo - playing in a park in Barcelona, just a pickup game, not an organised event. The amount of skill and positioning sense was amazing, none of the boot the ball forward and everyone chase it stuff you get over here. its a football culture thing as much as training methods imo.

Do you think, in theory, that it's exceptionally difficult to develop players with technique and football-sense?

― flashing drill + penis fan (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 July 2010 13:13 (12 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

brazil and holland do this all the time and other countries are catching them up so no.

there aren't really any lessons for england in their success because england will never play that football, and will be lucky to develop a single player in a generation who gets near their level of technique and football-sense

― nakhchivan, Friday, 23 July 2010 13:09 (19 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_rpHP5-LnPcM/Sx6etA1GJLI/AAAAAAAABXk/dMDeTmJmeu4/s1600/wilshere_wenger.jpg

SUP Y'ALLLLLLLLL

xpost

Yeah this is what I think. Don't really buy into culture as an expression of National Spirit or some other 19th century nuttiness, think cultures can be changed if the will is there.

Of course I don't doubt for a second that in England's case, the will ain't there.

Do you think, in theory, that it's exceptionally difficult to develop players with technique and football-sense?

― flashing drill + penis fan (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 July 2010 13:13 (12 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

brazil and holland do this all the time and other countries are catching them up so no.

― one man meme-denier - jol in? (a hoy hoy), Friday, July 23, 2010 12:28 PM (34 minutes ago) Bookmark

a hoy hoy otm here.

Also think tomofthenest is correct about the culture thing.
I would settle for England developing players who don't mind receiving the ball when marked. Also players happy to give the ball to teammates who AREN'T in space confident that they will manage to retain possession. A lot of the time with England their passing looks so poor, and they revert to the long ball so often, not because the players are terrible at finding space necessarily but because they seem to rule out passing short to anyone if an opponent is in the general vicinity, oddly enough they seem happy to pump a long ball to someone similarly marked so go figure.