What's with that constant cymbal tapping in jazz drumming?

for some reason this thread title is cracking me up

― n/a is just more of a character....in a genre polluted by clones (n/a), Friday, 12 December 2008 23:09 (1 year ago)

"Honey, do you hear that constant cymbal tapping? Can you go see what that is?"

What's awesome is people who walk around making "tsss-ts-ts-tsss-ts-ts" noises with their mouths!

I've caught myself doing this loads lately. I blame Jimmy Cobb.

lol at this thread. I assumed kate had started it

great revive

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/black-sabbath-jazz-swing-influence-bill-ward-948231/

“I remember quite vividly listening to Black Sabbath, and it was the self-titled record,” Gaster recalls. “I think in particular it was the first song on Side Two, ‘Wicked World.’ Bill Ward opens up that tune by playing jazz time on the hi-hat. He’s playing that figure that you hear so many of those big-band guys play: ‘spang-a-lang, spang-a-lang.’ And that drives the band. There’s no backbeat; there’s no bass drum there in particular. It’s really just the sound of those hi-hats that’s pushing the band along.

lots of meat in that article, good stuff

That seems like kind of an obvious observation about that tune though? And lots of drummers of the time and preceding Ward were incorporating jazz influence. Mitch Mitchell comes to mind as someone who did so way more than Ward.

lmao at this thread

xp I like the perspective the article gives on the early Sabbath sound ... it's not that what Ward was doing was so unusual or innovative in itself, it's just cool to see the jazz-influenced aspects spelled out in some detail

always glad to see this thread revived, truly an ILM classic

The really funny thing is that it's actually a pretty deep question, with a lot of history behind the answer

I like imagining that the thread title was created by someone who lived next door to a jazz practice space. "ARGH, WHAT'S WITH THAT CONSTANT CYMBAL TAPPING!"

When I hear people pine for the early days of ILM, I think of threads like this and laugh.

I don't know of anyone who pines for the ILM/ILX of 2001 or 2002 tbf.

i do

What's with every jazz record having to have at least one ballad on it? Most jazz ballads are complete snoozes, very few players do them in a way I want to hear.

I don't know of anyone who pines for the ILM/ILX of 2001 or 2002 tbf.

― High profile Tom D (Tom D.), mercredi 12 février 2020 17:46 (eleven months ago) bookmarkflaglink

i do

― j., mercredi 12 février 2020 21:35 (eleven months ago) bookmarkflaglink

Same. And Jordan was right, this was actually a good question and discussion working out how a genre convention came to be.

Man alive, do you specifically mean the inclusion of vocal ballads on otherwise mostly instrumental albums, which always strikes me as a bit of a funny phenomenon, or just slower ballad tracks more generally?

Funny, I've only recently come to love the ballad. Partly because of work from home chill ambient playlist vibes (sorry), and partly because of some gigs with a serious trumpet player last year that made me realize how truly difficult they are to play well.

Like, I'd always heard people say that, and I consciously knew that keeping a steady quarter note gets harder the slower the tempo is. But if you're playing in school, at a jam session, or with anyone under 60 years old, no one is really going to call you out if the tempo fluctuates a tiny bit. And on these gigs there were ballads in that old-school tempo range that's not funereal nor is it approaching medium swing. Think 66 bpm, tempos that people used to slow dance to. Literally, if the first three quarter notes were not as counted off, the rhythm section would be getting snaps and stomps and glares. It was the hardest part of the night and I dreaded it. Not that I'm great at it now, but I did learn some things about lightening up my approach and practicing those tempos.

Also I was listening to Steve Jordan on a podcast and was glad to hear him say that everyone skips the ballads on records when they're young, but now they're his favorite (he was talking about 'Basin St Blues' on Seven Steps to Heaven).

and what's the deal with those slow movements in classical symphonies, bunch of filler if you ask me

Jordan's post reminds me of someone on ILM commenting that Grant Green's "Idle Moments" (the title track) sounds like a competition for who can play slower

I'd always heard people say that, and I consciously knew that keeping a steady quarter note gets harder the slower the tempo is.

seriously true. Like, it also gets harder as you play faster and exceed the comfort zone, but it isn't as obvious as when your time slips when playing slower (especially live, because the audience generally is just going apeshit and doesn't really care as much as you, the drummer, do)

also I don't think anyone so far has mentioned that the swing rhythm is basically 1/2 (as in one hand) of the standard paradiddle rudiment?

I still often skip the ballads on a typical jazz record, though obviously I can listen to Coltrane or Bill Evans play ballads for three hours straight -- if anything I'm more likely to skip the up tempo tune on a Bill Evans record.

also I don't think anyone so far has mentioned that the swing rhythm is basically 1/2 (as in one hand) of the standard paradiddle rudiment?

― sarahell, Thursday, January 14, 2021 4:55 PM (three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

true, although only one-handed, normally you'd switch lead hands when you play paradiddles

idle moments is so great, i think the meaning of life might be in there somewhere

I think even the most incorrigible ballad hater should enjoy monk ballads (especially as played by him). in the robin kelley bio monk is constantly tripping up talented players who love to show off by doing things like unexpectedly calling fast tunes at ballad tempo and such

Monk ballads are some of the best music ever made!

it was tylerw btw:

title track on that is ridic, some sort of competition between the players on who could play the slowest. i think joe henderson wins, because he sounds totally chill and totally tense at the same time.

― tylerw, Tuesday, August 30, 2011 4:30 PM (nine years ago)

xp man alive - L (R) L-L (R) L (R-R) (repeat) -- isn't this what I said? Isn't this the basic jazz ride pattern? the (R) being the other hand that would be played in a paradiddle but is omitted ?

this is such a funny thread. hi hats are like one of the most beautiful sounds ever in the hands of a skilled drummer.

still need to listen to so much more jazz but my favorite ballads ever are on "out to lunch!" just so haunting.

That reminds me of another story I heard from Bill Stewart on a podcast, about how impressed he was with Eddie Harris on a slow tune on the Hand Jive record. How most saxophonists play kind of floaty and rubato on ballads, but Eddie Harris played super clear actual note values for the whole tune, with perfect time.

I saw Bernard Purdie give a lecture/demonstration once, and he talked about how impossible it was to play with Ray Charles, specifically the glacial pace of what Purdie called Charles’ “death tempo.” (Think “I Believe To My Soul” at half the tempo of the recording.)

looool

xp man alive - L (R) L-L (R) L (R-R) (repeat) -- isn't this what I said? Isn't this the basic jazz ride pattern? the (R) being the other hand that would be played in a paradiddle but is omitted ?

― sarahell, Thursday, January 14, 2021 5:11 PM (thirteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

No I mean the typical way to practice paradiddles would be RLRRLRLLRLRRLRLL, so you're only getting the RLRR part.

I'm sure there's an actual answer out there for where the pattern comes from, but my speculation would be that it's more likely something that came from the Caribbean via New Orleans. Afro-Caribbean and Afro-Latin musics tend to have a lot more emphasis on the "a" (as in "one-e-and-a"), which is where the third cymbal tap falls -- you can really hear it if you straighten out the cymbal pattern a bit.

fwiw I love playing slow tempos because you have so much elasticity and space to play with.

xp, just for example, you can hear the "constant cymbal tapping" rhythm a lot here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs9ZHIWYZC0

Also I meant to say as far as man alive's original comment about always including ballads on records, I feel like I was kind of ruined by the jazz idea that you need to keep switching up the feel during a set or record. Play a fast tune? Then you need to play a ballad next. A thirty two bar tune? Time for a blues. Play two swing tunes in a row? Better mix it up with a Latin tune.

There's obviously something to it in terms of keeping the audience engaged, especially in jazz where it's mostly instrumental soloing. But I don't think it applies as well to sequencing in other genres where keeping up a sustained mood might be more valuable.

Jordan yeah that's exactly what I'm talking about really, I find it very boring usually when jazz records follow that kind of formula. I love an album that sustains a single mood or stays within greater constraints, much more interesting.

But also, to do that AND sustain attention you have to be way better. But you have to be way better to play ballads well too.

No I mean the typical way to practice paradiddles would be RLRRLRLLRLRRLRLL, so you're only getting the RLRR part.

ah yes, I realize that I reversed it because I am left-handed and I play my kit that way. But regardless, if you played the dominant hand part on the ride cymbal (and omitted the weak hand part) you would basically have the first part of the jazz ride pattern.

Ballads are where horn players really get into tone like guitarists get gaga about various types of distortion. I think the line in many jazz books/articles often throw in a line about Ben Webster's tone.

I know the 'ballads are way harder to play than the fast ones' is also mentioned in a few jazz players bios at some point too. Fast ones can cover up the slop or just wrong notes, can't hide on a ballad its all out there in the open.

Man alive 100% otm today.

Ballads kill the momentum, and they're just ubiquitous. The only thing that saps the energy worse are bass solos.

please, suck the air out of the room with yet another rendition of Polka Dots and Moonbeams. Here comes the tinkly piano intro that doesn't have the same chords as the song, can't wait...

Hot take: good ballads are good, shitty ballads are shitty.

good ballads are good but the whole concept of ballads is shitty

philistines

So much crazy talk itt

ballads are terrible, who wants to hear beautiful romantic music that makes you ruminate on life love & longing, what a dumb idea lol

ballads are good especially in jazz

What's people's opinion on free jazz ballads?

does this count? if so great https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT-yCncB2mU

Milford Graves said that, during an Albert Ayler residency at Slug's in 1967, they had to play four sets a night. Because everyone was so exhausted, the fourth set was always very slow pieces.