The Great ILX Gun Control Debate

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I'm all for the continued evolution of this thread into total comedic clusterfuckage, but I am still hung up on this whole thing. At the end of the day, the Libertarian gun thing is just seriously selfish cuntery, right? A lot of foot-stomping about how "it's my RIGHT to have these guns... and I LIKE them!"; whilst paying absolutely no attention to (or brushing aside) the fact that there is a massive part of the country with issues ranging from incredibly poor mental health to serious economic and educational disadvantage that should not have easy access to guns (but clearly do, as my own personal experience can testify to)? Do the likes of Roger think that's someone else's problem?

― Ben Boyerrr, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:44 (seventeen years ago) link

selfish cuntery

aka libertarianism

― ledge, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:46 (seventeen years ago) link

Show me someone who can attempt to speak reasonably and intelligently about why liberals "have it wrong" about gun control without sounding like a SCARY FUCKING MANIAC.

Milo and river wolf are doing a good job of this, I think.

― HI DERE, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:49 (seventeen years ago) link

(To clarify: I think Milo is stating decent reasons for why being able to legally carry a gun isn't automataically a bad thing and river wolf is doing a good job of arguing that most antigun legislation doesn't address the problems that are leading to gun violence in the first place.)

― HI DERE, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 12:52 (seventeen years ago) link

http://static.zoovy.com/img/2bhip/W179-H140/the_right_to_keep_and_arm_bears_black_belt_buckle.jpg

― The Boyler, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:02 (seventeen years ago) link

No, you're right... I suppose I meant "show me someone who believes we should do absolutely nothing about retricting guns who can attempt to speak reasonably and intelligently..."

River Wolf says things like while ppl will never stop killing each other out of rage, getting rid of guns would probably seriously curb the number of people who are successful., which one would assume means he is for gun control on some level.

Obviously River Wolf's big picture scenario - fix the problem at the fucking source for once - is right on.

(xpost)

― Ben Boyerrr, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:06 (seventeen years ago) link

Fucking hell, that sentiment in bold type is off, too. Obviously I mean "someone who doesn't think we need to change things as they are now."

― Ben Boyerrr, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:08 (seventeen years ago) link

I think Milo is stating decent reasons for why being able to legally carry a gun isn't automataically a bad thing

Of course it's not a bad thing - heck, having an atom bomb in your house is not bad per se - but the fact is that in many cases it's misused and one should try to avoid that problem. Easiest solution: trying to get rid of people having guns at home.

― nathalie, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:08 (seventeen years ago) link

i appreciate the argument that super-gun-control would be impossible to enforce, but what about making it harder to buy new guns? how do the gun fans feel about that?

― s1ocki, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:46 (seventeen years ago) link

tracer, you can buy night vision goggles at many specialty stores, i've seen them.

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Tuesday, 17 April 2007 14:48 (seventeen years ago) link

sweet! i just hope they're as effective as the police/military's are. i mean those REALLY work. from like 200 yards away in complete darkness you can see a guy BEHIND a door.

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 14:56 (seventeen years ago) link

i mean, i hope you're not talking about the sharper image. that place is full of empty promises.

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 14:59 (seventeen years ago) link

do i look like the type of person who has set foot into a sharper image?

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:00 (seventeen years ago) link

hey my bad. let's all be cool.

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:03 (seventeen years ago) link

Obligatory gun insurance/training/licensing
Tighter control over ammunition
Cessation of preferential treatment of gun manufacturers
All guns must be pink with flowery handles/stocks, clips must be fuschia

― Michael White, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:06 (seventeen years ago) link

It's just the internets.

― Laurel, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:07 (seventeen years ago) link

heck, having an atom bomb in your house is not bad per se - but the fact is that in many cases it's misused and one should try to avoid that problem.

Yeah, we use our atom bomb as a door stop. I know that's wrong, but it looks so ornamental.

― Michael White, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:08 (seventeen years ago) link

What are criminals afraid of? Burglar alarms? Dogs? Nope. They're afraid of some housewife in a bathrobe with a loaded and cocked .357.

LOL WHO ARE THESE CRIMINALS "omg i hope wifey isn't up ready to shoot me with her purse pistol! oh fuck you rottweiler, you pussy, oh also fuck the police and the completely thorough and functional burglar alarm that catch the fucking husband half the time he comes home from his affair OH WAIT he got shot by the wife lol."

Also I love the concept that because SOME people are mature responsible gun holders, ALL people should have access to guns. Gun control is around so that responsible people get them and irresponsible people don't. Why is there an argument here?

That said I didn't read anything under the "skipping messages" cut, so I dunno where any of this is at and I am just spittin'.

― Will M., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:16 (seventeen years ago) link

"omg i hope wifey isn't up ready to shoot me with her purse pistol! oh fuck you rottweiler, you pussy, oh also fuck the police and the completely thorough and functional burglar alarm that catch the fucking husband half the time he comes home from his affair OH WAIT he got shot by the wife lol."

to be fair, i'd wager more people own handguns than do burglar alarms or attack dogs.

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:22 (seventeen years ago) link

Haha "attack dogs". We never had a single dog who wasn't a happy, barking idiot who wanted everyone on our property to chase him and throw sticks...until I snuck into the house one night so as not to wake up the family, and the two happy collies in our basement got to growling like I have NEVER heard before or since (until I spoke to them & they recognized my voice). If you'd asked me whether our dogs wd attack an intruder I'd have said no, but I was glad for the basement door between us then.

― Laurel, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:26 (seventeen years ago) link

Or good locks that they actually keep locked, which would obviate the need for any of these things. I'v been robbed, and threatened with rape and death in my own house and a gun wouldn't have done me any f*cking good at all in any of those situations. Even if I were really trained in, like, firearm safety. None of it would have happened in the first place if I'd had GOOD LOCKS.

xpost

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:28 (seventeen years ago) link

Unfortunately, good locks are sort of a moot point these days. Search "bump key."

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:29 (seventeen years ago) link

guns are way oversold as a mechanism for "self-defense." on my list of 10 best ways to keep myself from being shot, having a gun places about 27th. i wish more gun advocates would admit -- like roger does -- that they just like having guns. i also wish they acknowledged -- like roger doesn't -- that it's a kinda creepy hobby, and stopped comparing it to collecting stamps or something.

given the constitution and u.s. history, wishing for a gun-free america is like wishing for a unicorn cavalry. and the knee-jerk gun control "debate" that gets reignited by every freak massacre is at this point just tiresome civic ritual. but the persistent paranoia of the gun brigade is even more tiresome. i don't want to take away anyone's (legally owned) guns, but it's not very reassuring to keep being reminded that the most armed segment of society also seems to be the most paranoid and given to juvenile red dawn fantasies.

― tipsy mothra, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:30 (seventeen years ago) link

oh man do i ever want a unicorn cavalry

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:31 (seventeen years ago) link

(also i know this is just anecdote, but i've known several people who have confronted burglars in their homes. the only one i know who got shot was also the only one i know who was carrying a gun at the time of the confrontation.)

― tipsy mothra, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:32 (seventeen years ago) link

I know about bump keys. They only work on pin-and-tumbler locks. If you have a mortice key in addition you're doing all right. Those two plus a police-style bar across the door and you can save a lot of money on both burglar alarms and the 20 years of therapy you'll need after you accidentally shoot your son.

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:33 (seventeen years ago) link

But do more housewives have handguns than burglar alarms or... uhh, attack dogs? Angry dogs included. If the answer is "yes," then holy shit. xpost to infinity

― Will M., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:34 (seventeen years ago) link

First of all, Guns are for Cowards. Nothing quite like the warm rush of blood from the throat of some commie pinko liberal immigrant down your hand as you plunge the blade into the larynx of evil.

Second of all, whilst I've never been personally attacked by someone with a gun, my neighbour back in the day (who was mentally disabled and often the target of abuse by rowdy kids) would, every so now and again, get his house shot up by kids driving by. Now, perhaps my spider-sense failed me, but a bullet could have gone astray into my house/window/me, and even if I owned a gun would have had no possibilty of using it to defend myself. If the kids were throwing knives, I probably wouldn't have worried so much. If they had thrown ninja stars, I probably would have thought they were awesome.

Thirdly:

"What is it with men and guns?"
"I think I speak for everyone here when I say, they are metal penises."

River Wolf was OTM way upthread.

― Gukbe, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:37 (seventeen years ago) link

Oh ha, I only have one comment here, running straight back to Manalishi's invocation of the Bible of wanting everyone armed -- More Guns, Less Crime -- which people like him invariably point to, and which few people who aren't social scientists or gun freaks bother reading. Let me assure you, from personal experience with this book and its author, that there is no safe assumption that this book and its argument aren't a crock. Lott is probably spending this week doing what he does whenever any time anyone in the universe gets shot, which is sending opinion pieces to the local paper talking about how just waving a gun at a criminal prevents crime (in between making up online personas to defend his work). His research on this stuff isn't totally nutty, but it's still a great length from rock solid. And even in its iffy claims of a crime rate reduction from letting people carry concealed weapons (iffy both in his methods and his assignments of cause), he really doesn't take on any of the objections people might have to a concealed-weapon self-policing society, or do anything to compensate for the types of places that wind up allowing concealed weapons, or ask, in his national advocacy for this sort of thing, whether that dynamic would be preserved elsewhere.

But beyond that I'll totally admit to having completely selfish personal reasons for not wanting the concealed-weapon self-policing society: I'm willing to admit that I have serious trouble trusting the public in general to hold life-and-death power over what's going on around them. I'll stick to getting kicked in the nuts for reaching past someone for an ATM envelope, not dying.

― nabisco, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:41 (seventeen years ago) link

Hey, I have a point to bring up that probably came up upthread, but who gives a fuck about the Constitution? I mean honestly. How about we base laws on what's going on now? Fuck a John Hancock. That shit is old. If we followed all of the old rules in all of the old books, women would be killed without mercy if her husband got in a fight with another man and in an effort to stop the other man the wife grabbed and pulled the other man's testicles (Deut 23:17 iirc, somewhere around there anyway).

― Will M., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:44 (seventeen years ago) link

What people like Manalishi are arguing for is essentially a Free Market of Death, an experiment that runs contrary to most every successful precedent in the rest of the entire world.

― nabisco, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:45 (seventeen years ago) link

All gun-owners should be required to quarter military personnel in their homes for a portion of the year. Just for fun, really.

― Gukbe, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:46 (seventeen years ago) link

but they already HAVE the guns nabisco, the guns are already out there, so you might indeed get a gun barrel tucked right into your gut as you reach for that envelope. and THEN wouldn't you rather have had a gun tucked into your boot, that you could then reach down, pull out, cock and shoot your assailant with? life would be so much less violent!

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:47 (seventeen years ago) link

every day would be a hong kong john woo fee film.

totally. awesome.

― Gukbe, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:49 (seventeen years ago) link

fee? scratch that

― Gukbe, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:49 (seventeen years ago) link

My bad, it's Deut 25:11, and you don't kill her, you chop off her hand

― Will M., Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:50 (seventeen years ago) link

well that's a relief

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:51 (seventeen years ago) link

deut=stupid.

woman with no hand=man washing dishes + awkward hand jobs

― Gukbe, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:52 (seventeen years ago) link

This thread is weird. I don't think Kenan was being smug or preening. I find Evan's stance confusing. To my knowledge, there's only one person I've met who owns a gun, and that's my redneck uncle who lives in Peoria and is very much a John-Deere-hat-and-overalls-wearing fetishist who shoots deer in his backyard. I don't really see why anyone needs to have them. I understand that people always have. I understand that it's near impossible to change that. I don't know why we wouldn't try to at least curb new gun sales, as Slocki suggests.

― jaymc, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:55 (seventeen years ago) link

military-grade assault weapons seem excessive, and i find it hard to understand how any rational private citizen can aruge a case for their legal status.

then again, i loathe most people, so perhaps i'm out of touch?

― Gukbe, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:56 (seventeen years ago) link

lol life-long liberal urbanites

― ghost rider, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:56 (seventeen years ago) link

But do more housewives have handguns than burglar alarms or... uhh, attack dogs? Angry dogs included. If the answer is "yes," then holy shit. xpost to infinity

Yeah, this statement way upthread confused me, too. What housewives are actually packing heat? Maybe I don't hang out with enough housewives.

― jaymc, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:56 (seventeen years ago) link

this needs to posted again:

so one thing people have been arguing lately is that civic engagement in america is quite low compared to countries where gun violence / homicide rates are much lower (you could do a similar comparison across neighborhoods in america). what constitutes civic engagment would be things like involvement in church, home ownership, higher education, employment, membership in civic groups, etc etc ... i have a strong intuitive feeling that these things are even stronger dis-incentives to gun violence than draconian gun laws or a well-armed populace.

-- moonship journey to baja, Tuesday, April 17, 2007 1:38 AM (7 hours ago)

Manalishi: ??

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 15:57 (seventeen years ago) link

yeah, that's it in a nutshell. once a handgun comes out, whether wielded by "good guy" or "bad guy", something very big has failed.

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:00 (seventeen years ago) link

I really shouldn't even get involved in this, but oh well.

First of all, a whole bunch of people seem to be conflating two different arguments here (well, probably more like seven, but two stick out.)

1. Ownership of firearms
2. Conceal and Carry laws

These are very distinct, separate issues, and using a sucessful argument against one to imply an argument against the other is simply sloppy or misleading logic.

― John Justen, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:03 (seventeen years ago) link

I was a little hard on kenan (sorry, dude), but he quickly reverted to "gun owners are just plain BANANANANAS lol!" and ad hominem attacks and didn't seem particularly interested in actually engaging the issue. Smug because he'd already made up his mind, and preening because most of his posts seemed like excuses to make quips and let everyone know how REALLY AGAINST guns he was. Not very constructive. But whatever, I was exhausted, had been at the bedside of a woman coughing up blood all night (non-gun-related assault), and was totally wasted off a beer and a half.

That being said: what is it that's confusing about my stance, jaymc?

brtrps JJ, yes.

― river wolf, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:04 (seventeen years ago) link

lol life-long liberal urbanites

As someone who's never even touched a gun, and so the vast majority of my real-life experience with them is reading the news when people get murdered, I admit that it's very hard for me to expand my perspective on this issue.

― jaymc, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:04 (seventeen years ago) link

Your stance in and of itself isn't confusing, it's the way I felt when I read it that was confusing, because I consider you a bro and meanwhile you were giving props to Manalishi.

― jaymc, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:05 (seventeen years ago) link

dammit JJ i wanted to stick to simple, obvious declarations that make me feel good about myself

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:05 (seventeen years ago) link

http://imagesource.allposters.com/images/pic/adc/10103223A~Charles-Bronson-Death-Wish-Posters.jpg

― deej, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:07 (seventeen years ago) link

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