are you an atheist?

So, I'm a rather dogmatically rationalist atheist, but I really like gospel music.

I'm totally ok with the concept of atheism and all the supposed dogma it entails, I just want to self-apply the label for the same reason I don't get the word "Liberal" tattooed on my arm. Too Garofalo for my tastes.

No, science as a social institution is irrelevant. Social ain't got a thing to do with it. Science is too busy with biotech right now to chat much.
-- kenanYou seem to be joking to some extent or another, but I can't quite parse it. Biotech is hardly the only active scientific field at the moment. And science is social by nature (peer review, shared findings, competition). It's social in that it helps define the shared beliefs of all human societies, beliefs shared even by scientists themselves. And in that sense, science (scientific understandings, not the scientific method itself) can be dogmatic, hostile to threat or change.

I just DONT want to self-apply etc

keep doing that italics-instead-of-quotes thing

http://www.jxflagg.com/images/unicorn.jpg

xpost No, you're right.

But the idea of science in the popular imagibation or what have you is completely disconnected from what scientists actually do when they go to work every day, if only for the reason that most people don't and/or can't and/or won't understand it. So it's social in the confines of its own very insular community, but to the world at large, the curtain is drawn and wondrous objects magically appear from time to time. I can't even explain how a cathode ray tube works (in much detail), and that's a 50 year old product of science.

So you were saying "social institution" meaning "the insular scientific community," and I was thinking of it as a larger part of the social cloth, which, really, it isn't.

After years of dithering, it was a relief to just say, "I'm an atheist." I grew up in a moderately Catholic household and endured a Stephen Dedalus-esque moment of intense religiosity through most of my adolescence. I'm like Buñuel: I've too much of an atheist not to adore the ritual and romance.

i'm an atheist, yet i just can't get enough of this delicious manna! problem?

God and Science are mysteries to most people, but for very different reasons.

I just DONT want to self-apply etc

Oh, go on...I feel my side is losing out here because of semantics.

Taking sides... like getting into an argument between a Man U fan and an Arsenal fan when you don't give a shit about soccer.

Alfred, otm - after years of trying to sort out just what my personal belief system was, invariably in the context of one religious system or another, it was freeing to acknowledge that I don't believe in the existence of god, or gods.

yes. 100%

it's funny/depressing hearing people try to give some rational explanation as to why god exists.

here are some corkers: http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm

ARGUMENT FROM SMUGNESS
(1) God exists.
(2) I don't give a crap whether you believe it or not; I have better things to do than to try to convince you morons.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM "THE MATRIX"
(1) We cannot prove that we don't live in a Matrix-like world.
(2) Therefore we cannot know reality.
(3) If reality is contingent, then everything is possible.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM POSSIBLE WORLDS
(1) If things had been different, then things would be different.
(2) That would be bad.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM MASS PRODUCTION
(1) Barbie dolls were created.
(2) If Barbie dolls were created, then so were trees.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

I voted no, coz like I'm not.

I propose a counter-poll, getting to it more directly.

Is there God and/or Gods?

* Yes
* No

ARGUMENT FROM "THE MATRIX"
(1) We cannot prove that we don't live in a Matrix-like world.
(2) Therefore we cannot know reality.
(3) If reality is contingent, then everything is possible.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

I don't get the leap in logic from #3 to #4 here.

Is there God and/or Gods?

* No

then DIIIIIIIIIIIEEE! ~~~~~~~ZZZZZZZZZ~~~~~ZZ~~Z#$%^$%^%#$#$##$#

I believe there could well be some sort of benign creator God who has just left us alone to get on with it. No heaven, no hell. I also think, that if people believe in something, then to them it exists, therefore I would 'yes' there is a God/Gods. Obviously, I got this idea from Marvel comics and their take on the Norse mythology in the Earth X series. Finally, I wouldn't actually mind if there was a loving all powerful God and life eternal, that'd be really cool, but probably wishful thinking.

Oily, how long does it take you to make a two-choice poll?

jaymc, he leap from #3 to #4 depends on conflating "everything is possible" with "everything is actual".

if you believe something, then it exists?

i don't think so.

that'd be nice, but no.

i believe i'm a rich bastard with nothing to do but make pop songs and sleep with beautiful men!!

doh nope, still in the office.

JAYMC: The argument is nonsensical 'cuz it's a comedy strawman designed to make other, legit arguments look bad. Which is kinda silly, 'cuz the non-joke "rational" arguments for the existence of god don't need the assistance. They look bad enough on their own.

I believe I am getting a blowjob right now.

Oh, hey.

God what the hell was I doing last night posting to this thread. I know better. I decided to Get Some Things Done, and I made lists and notes, and the lists got really long and complicated, and suddenly arguing about bloody buggery God seemed like a really fun option.

Grrrr.

http://www.raige.net/pictures/images/RaigeKeyboard.gif

I would just like to state for the record that bloody buggery God is not in my canon.

ack, I know what I mean.

JAYMC: The argument is nonsensical 'cuz it's a comedy strawman designed to make other, legit arguments look bad. Which is kinda silly, 'cuz the non-joke "rational" arguments for the existence of god don't need the assistance. They look bad enough on their own.

-- contenderizer, Wednesday, May 21, 2008 6:05 PM

well, these are flippant, pithy summations of big theist ideas like the argument from design or the argument from personal revelation. it's jokes!

bruv

bloody buggery God is not in my canon

LO, BUT HE IS VENGEFUL! REPENT!

Sorry, kkvsgz. I am too busy reviving cockroach threads to create that poll.

I used to be an atheist, but then I did a bunch of potent drugs over a long period of time, and became an agnostic who hopes that when I die and my conscious being becomes freed from the flesh, it becomes a part of a sentient all-knowing universe or something.

I chose 'yes' anyway, though. I used to have a lot of opinions about this - coming from a very religious family - but I really don't care enough to discuss it any more.

Yeah I can only have the discussion so many times before it becomes asphyxiating.

btw I didn't mean to insult this thread by posting that or anything. There are some good thoughts on this thread for sure. I just don't really have much to contribute to the subject any more.

Alfred, otm - after years of trying to sort out just what my personal belief system was, invariably in the context of one religious system or another, it was freeing to acknowledge that I don't believe in the existence of god, or gods.

But then you're sort of stuck in a atheist belief system, right? (Is that how you would say it in English?) And you have to build up everything from there which completely fucks me up. :-(

guess what bros we're all atheists about a lot of really improbable shit with no proof to it, and despite positing stoner hypotheses about how we could all be in a big snow globe or some such other horseshit it's kind of how we deal with the observable world - this doesnt mean we wouldnt believe in shit if suddenly there was evidence for it but right now im not seeing increased evidence for god-belief over, i dunno, reptilian humanoid conspiracy theory belief, beyond social acceptability of religion x wishful thinking

BUt there are eyewitness accounts of Tony Blair turning into a lizard and drinking virgin blood!

im not seeing increased evidence for god-belief over, i dunno, reptilian humanoid conspiracy theory belief, beyond social acceptability of religion x wishful thinking

exactly. i don't see how just cause some view is widely held, NOT holding it makes one *automatically* dogmatic.

i don't see how just cause some view is widely held, NOT holding it makes one *automatically* dogmatic.

-- Granny Dainger

totally agree, but as evidenced on this thread, people seem to equate atheism with being dogmatic about it.

fwiw i think that the world would be better if reptilian humanoid conspiracy theories were eradicated and feel the same way about theism

That does't surprise me at all.

http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/a6/55/b509729fd7a05363c70ce010._AA240_.L.jpg

nobody's perfect

http://www.unoriginal.co.uk/comics/toon222god.jpg