Tragic Football Stories - Let us Kick Around the misshapen Jabulani that is English football right here

why do liverpool? Spurs?

were all of our right backs worse than alan hutton?

9m worse?

don't for a second buy that.

Tom top level players are different. I can obviously understand what Torres or Drogba add. Or as I said in the other thread, Wigan's ability to buy foreigners makes perfect sense. But what has Newcastle's proven track record of buying from outside the country added to their game, let alone the national side, other than complete and utter failure?

*cough cough* Scottish football *tumbleweeds*

'xactly! 9 poxy million put back into the academy compared to the fucking pittance any club currently spends on it would give you four thousand alan huttons!

Yes, why are English clubs wasting millions on players from a strange culture and who don't speak the language like Alan Hutton

at least then we'd have more than one right back to take to the fucking competition let alone choose from.

WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU WANT FOUR THOUSAND ALAN HUTTONS

'twas a joke my maine, calm it

Tom okay why the hell did Scottish clubs do it?

Perceived wisdom is that foreign players are better value for money in terms of skill/asking price, but that's been evident bollocks for ages.

Maybe all the club scouts are foreigners?

This is gonna turn out to be about agents and backhanders again, isn't it?

that's what i said about 30 posts up

Perceived wisdom is that foreign players are better value for money in terms of skill/asking price, but that's been evident bollocks for ages.

even in the short term, that's still v debatable

Perceived wisdom is that foreign players are better value for money in terms of skill/asking price, but that's been evident bollocks for ages.

Not that evident I would suggest, in terms of price + wages. It gets to be a trend, it's the done thing.

Top English clubs develop home grown talent up until the age of maybe 18, and then what's the thingummy rate? 95%?

What's the point of that? There's no way a player is the finished product at 18, not even at 21.

Shit, Aaron Lennon was fast but gash until last year, and he's been first team for four years or so.

It's chicken + egg tho. Decrease in quality in footballers coming thru the ranks, this is Scotland I'm talking about, was probably happening before the influx of foreign players and buying foreign players was seen as a short-term solution to that.

D'you think that the loss of talent to English clubs played a part in that Tom?

Not that evident I would suggest, in terms of price + wages.

But that would only apply to homegrown kids being overpriced by lower league clubs selling on, it doesn't apply to talent that the club develops itself, surely? Unless some guys in charge of academies have been Arrying a lot off the top.

D'you think that the loss of talent to English clubs played a part in that Tom?

Oh no, Scottish players have been playing in England since the formation of the English League, they won the league for those clubs!

Ireland produces a lot more good footballers than Scotland, how are they doing it?

Gaelic Football dropout wimps

^srsly^

Too crap to kick it over the crossbar?

I'm right in thinking that's how it works, yeah?

Too fucking soft, lad

But at least they're playing a sport?

Where d'you think Quinny got his bad back?

Away with your disco pants ya pansy fuck ya

I dunno what the % of irish lads playing organised sport in their teens would be, but yeah I'd imagine that it's pretty high for all of Giles/Dunphy moaning on the subject.

It's not the Gaelic thing, rly- most kids with aptitiude will play both until forced to choose. That's v common even within the Gaelic disciplines of Football/Hurling

The fact that GAA is a local game with local heroes is a big thing in encouraging participation to a fairly professional standard though, so I do think there's something there.

I know nothing about the development of soccer players though, because, simply put, you need to be from dublin or cork to get a game or a sniff of a game at FAI utd FC

I tell you when I know Scotland was in trouble: on 1st June 1997, I sat down to watch highlights of a friendly between Scotland and Malta, and soon realised there was a player wearing a Scotland shirt who I had never heard of before - that man was David Hopkin

Played for leeds for a while? looks like rorscharch from watchmen?

anyway, sure that happens all the time under trapattoni- it's a bit of an adjusment to think of internationals as the first place your boys play first-class first team football, but it's seems to be working so far.

Since Rafa took charge of the Academy, there have plenty of English boys impressing and making names for themselves, so hopefully they'll get a chance when Roy's installed (although he's not known for nurturing youth particularly well?)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/8611991.stm

I didn't realise as many as seven of that Barça team were home-grown - that's really quite impressive

WELL DONE BARCEFUCKINGLONA GO AND PLAY WITH YOUR UNICEF FRIENDS AND MAKE A COMMERCIAL

Ha, I was about to parody that lj post practically word-for-word. If you're not eulogising FC Bonyodkor as footballing nirvana by the end of the close season I will feel majorly let down.

It's pretty fucking amazing in this day and age, Louis don't be a cock.

Not uncommon in Spain tho? Apart from Real Madrid, of course.

hahaha I was definitely posting very much in character, not making an actual argument there - it is pretty damn impressive yes

also yeah Bilbao's feats are probably even more impressive - they don't have a worldwide scouting network and the best youth coaches money can buy

besides Messi everyone who's currently starring after being brought through the Barca youth system is Spanish though, no? But no doubt that Bilbao's shit is remarkable indeed, especially with the history (to what extent does it still apply?) of restricting themselves to a place with a population comparable to that of Wales.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwQ80x2MrG8

I remember Mallorca doing well one year in a European competition and the fact that all of their players were born within 20 miles of their ground

... in the UK, we'd say "Oh well of course that sort of thing doesn't happen anymore" blah blah blah

in the uk, it doesn't.

We're so much more advanced here

the uk football team

Loathe as I am to add grist to the mill of less-reputable posters, I must confess to finding Spain pretty boring to watch. It's good when there's a real struggle on and they look vulnerable, but in this tournament that's been just the opening against Chile and maybe half-an-hour today. Possibly the last ten minutes against Switzerland at a stretch. Otherwise there's no drama, it's mostly just waiting around for them to score. That's kind of how I remember 2008 as well.

I want to see them hounded, and have to respond, in big games that could go either way. If they do that well then great, I'll be a fan, but until I see that I have no faith. Holland would probably beat them. Uruguay too maybe. Germany would have a good chance. Brazil would murder them.

― Ismael Klata, 29 June 2010 22:27 (Yesterday)

<3 IK, he's a serious football poster etc- but is this attitude (is it prevailing, for a start?) a large part of the problem wrt English international footballers being so rushed, impatient, dramatic on the ball?

I mean, I'm just happy if John O'Shea can find a team mate, to hell with the pass being in any way forward progress on top of that tbh.

The problem with Spain is that Iniesta and Xavi started their careers as DMs, so do they really need them two, Xabi Alonso AND Sergio Busquiets in midfield w/ no wingers? They are by far the most creative team in the world, fucking do something with it, try and beat yr man occasionally instead of making your 67th consecutive pass. It's effective football but its also extremely boring.

Brazil v. Spain will be p intense tho

Not the problem w/ English football. We'd fucking love some of Spain's patience and ability to back it up. England play that fast and dramatic because they are scared of losing the ball soon enough if they try and pass it to each other.

Hey, I'm taking none of the blame for that nonsense!

You've got a serious point wrt to actually watching the England team, namely that they're such a drama queen - and drama queens do make such great viewing. No idea why England (and France! And I guess Argentina!) should have become the football equivalent of high camp, but they are almost always undeniably compelling. I don't know if 'twas ever thus - I can't think of a proper example before 1986, though the seeds are there in 66 and 73 - but since 86 it has turned into a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy, in that passion and hysterical overreaction have become the answer to everything. Not sure we'd like calm efficiency very much. It certainly wouldn't make for a memorable narrative.

xxp

Iniest and Xavi are DM's, but not in the English understanding of the position. They're deep-lying playmakers. Iniesta never convinced in the role because of his preference for attacking options in movement/passing. He also beats his man more often than any english player I could name, tbh.

Villa plays wide on the left- he's an real winger, as opposed to playing Milner on the right of midfield.

With Villa on the left, they don't need anyone on the right- Ramos gets into the opponent's box more often than Lampard/Gerrard/Lennon/Walcott.

Spain keep the ball and attack with runs from deep because that's how you break down teams that refuse to attack you- When England learn to do this rather than run en masse up front and wait for a long ball, taking away any options for the man on the ball in the process, they might make the 1/4 finals again.

xp to IK

Yeah, the sturm/drang of the premier league is carried over in the english player mentality, I think. If you're not achieving something immediately, it's suspiciously foreign.