Let's talk Dario Argento...

Honda - if you're not getting Suspiria it's probably because you've not dimmed the lights and cranked up the sound as loud as possible. Either that or you're still discovering non-American horror which is as different from Hollywood as you can get.

also i think what mark is asking isn't "which directors wouldn't be the same without argento", but HOW wouldn't they be the same - what would be missing? which moves in particular have they copped from him? I mean What Lies Beneath and From Hell are completely different movies (WLB is good, for one thing) so in what ways are they both "pure argento"?

(i'm not trying to get on your case, btw: it would just be nice to get some of these threads beyond film-guide-blurb-style comments, and you seem to have more experience this genre than most of us do)

also using the word "influence" is a way of avoiding the actual process: yes yes the same devices/images are being used, but are they saying the same things more dully, or interesting different things?

Anyway, because you asked - 'Peeping Tom' showed a camera eye POV (NOT the killer's point of view per se) in which to try and seperate the distance that the viewer has between the action on screen and their own voyuerism. It, therefore, tried to make the viewer central to the actual murder. It is undoubtable that 'Peeping Tom' had a huge effect on the contemporary horror genre (c.f. 'Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer' and 'Man Bites Dog' to mention just two, use Powell's device exactly as he intended) but from The Cat O Nine Tails (1971) onwards Argento actually made the viewer into the killer through using the first person as camera's eye. It is quite probable that he was influenced by Powell but being as Peeping Tom was an initial flop and only rediscovered several years later as a 'critics' film - well, this may or may not be the case. Whatever the case is, Cat O Nine Tails was the first horror film in which the viewer is placed into the eye view of the murderer - in lesser genre books John Carpenter is associated with inventing this device in Halloween which we now know is not the case.

What Lies Beneath is pure Argento in that it owes its plot to the giallo films which Argento popularised (and Mario Bava brought to the screen). To go into this would have to involve me describing the giallo genre which, to be honest, I don't want to do (it will take more time than I have) so the best way to discover this is to watch the films yourself. But even stylistically the films owes its look to Argento (the scene in the bathroom evokes memories of Argento's Deep Red, whilst the close ups of murder weapons and running water are one of Dario's traits). From Hell with its nonsensical storyline, weapon fetishism and vivid colour scenes reminded me a great deal of Argento. The film's widescreen horrors are also influenced by Dario as he was the director who was consistent with the use of scope in the genre (very few horror films had used widescreen previous to The Bird with the Crystal Plumage and Dario's Suspiria showed how widescreen could prove effective to the genre - again, John Carpenter's Halloween is often the film credited with this).

Mark - are the films I'm talking about more or less effective? Well, when you use the term 'saying the same things' you are, I presume, assuming that Argento's cinema says anything (it doesn't) - narratively his films are a mess. So I would assume you are not familiar with his movies. His influence on mainstream cinema has been purely stylistically, although I should point out that he was the first director making films for a mass audience who presented gay characters in a positive light.

I'd recommend anyone who hasn't to check out everything Dario made from The Bird with the Crystal Plumage (1969) to Opera (1987) avoiding Phenomena (1985) on the way. I think many people would be honestly surprised about how much his cinema changed the way people make horror films in Hollywood. Halloween even rips off Deep Red's music score! Though Halloween is the better film IMO...

www.firelightshocks.com - is my web site. There are now three full length books on Argento, of which Maitland's is the best (good to read about him from a feminist POV as well, but the book ends at 1990's Two Evil Eyes), but also Alan Jone's book (Mondo Argento) and FAB Press released a book on him a couple of years ago as well.

I think most of his horror films are now available in the UK uncut on DVD, except Inferno, Cat O Nine Tails and The Stendhal Syndrome. Interesting - mainstream critic Kim Newman voted for Inferno as one of the ten best films ever made for the Sight and Sound poll!

link us to some of yr writing on this! i have no interest in you writing "academic" essays, just saying concrete stuff instead of being vague or saying "read this book" (says what the book SAYS if it's so interesting or useful) (doesn't have to be lengthy or lists: sometimes it's good to be able to distinguish a genre in a pithy, funny sentence anyway... this is def how to win new converts, who are always put off by lists and homework tasks, i think)

i'm not going to restart my furious ILM war on the actual meaninglessness of the word "influence" quite yet, but i do think the word is just noise unless ILF posters are prepared to be SPECIFIC about exactly they mean when they say it: yes i know it's a widely used word, but it's widely used to avoid specifics - and specifics are what's interesting (again i'm not attacking calum here: when i pursued the point to pin him down, he gave an answer detailing the specifics as he saw them — that's cool)

(tho it'd save time, calum, if you stopped waving the "if only you weren't so conventional in yr assumptions" stick at me — i actually have zero investment in someone else being considered "greater" or "lesser" than DA => what i like knowing IS WHAT STUFF DOES => if DA invented the killer-POV that's interesting, but it's also interesting — to me — how ppl after him used the same device, to similar or different ends in difft contexts)

I sympathise with the postee who said that they find his work worrying. I do as well - filming his own daughter being raped (Stendhal Syndrome) and in sex scenes (The Phantom of the Opera) is downright strange. And I do think accusations of misogyny are often well deserved - although men get it pretty horribly as well in his movies.

I never felt he was doing much with film and it was really lame. the soundtrack kept me awake through it all.

DA's films tend to reflect his circumstances and emotional state during production. during his protracted divorce from Daria Nicolodi, he certainly wasn't shy about dishing out onscreen pain and punishment to his ex (and now daughter Asia is in on the act; c.f. Scarlet Diva). the drab Trauma wore the constraints of a troubled, threadbare American production on its sleeve. and i don't know the status of familial relations circa Stendahl, but anything that would bring a father to have his daughter raped repeatedly whilst his camera leered couldn't be too healthy.

i suspect that DA enjoyed making Nonhosonno, as he once again revels in the filmic excesses that mark his most celebrated work. the camera hasn't been so untethered since Tenebre. the violence is meted out (mostly against women and effeminate men, of course) with grand guignol gusto that would have shocked even Fulci, yet it seems, god help us all, more playful than perverse. and all the lurid trappings - garish colors, overacting, Goblin! - are finally back in play. alas, they serve a screenplay that is the flimsiest of assemblages of giallo clichés. even in DA's able hands, it's such an incohesive clutter of nursery rhymes, childhood trauma, revenge, dreams, and fractured-identity psychobabble. still, viewed in the right spirit, it's a fun movie (barring its excessive length and wearying static stretches) - something we haven't been able to say about an Argento film in ages. no doubt, Argento has still got it. he stages one bravura sequence - the unrelenting pursuit of a train-bound victim-to-be - with merciless economy; the payoff to this bravura sequence is as horrifying as the murder that opens Irréversible. if nothing else, Nonhosonno suggests that it may be too early to dismiss the maestro as a has-been.

"the camera hasn't been so untethered since Tenebre".

What what what? Did you see Opera?

"the violence is meted out (mostly against women and effeminate men, of course)"

Argento rarely preys on effeminate men. He's bisexual and effeminate himself for goodnessake! His portrayal of gay characters in 'Cat O Nine Tails', 'Four Flies on Grey Velvet' and 'Deep Red' was genuinely ahead of its time.

"with grand guignol gusto that would have shocked even Fulci"

No I would argue with this. I thought 'Sleepless' was the first Argento film where the misogyny was irrelevant to the narrative and it just left me feeling revolted. BUT even so it's a far tamer excercise than Fulci's 'New York Ripper' or his even more reprehensible 'Cat in the Brain'. Though Deodato is much worse than even Fulci when it comes to making misogynistic, 'tear em up' gore movies.

yes, for some reason Terror at the Opera slipped my mind (if we're going to use English titles... at least i was being consistent about it. hmph.) and Argento's half of Two Evil Eyes was spirited as well. but the camerawork has been pretty lackluster since.

>His portrayal of gay characters in 'Cat O Nine Tails', 'Four Flies >on Grey Velvet' and 'Deep Red' was genuinely ahead of its time

as simpering stereotypes and/or fragile, damaged souls. yeah, way ahead of "Will & Grace" or The Birdcage, maybe.

Opera was also the original English language title for Terror at the Opera and the title of the current release. Again, you are participating in a thread where you are trying to persuade people to watch Argento films. How are you going to do that when people don't know or can't locate the films you're talking about you dodo?

Stop being such an anorak.

no you're not!

In this thread we say either classic or dud to argento and give our reasons. more attacking and more defending plz.

And this was never a 'classic or dud' thread.

"simpering stereotypes and/or fragile, damaged souls. yeah, way ahead of "Will & Grace" or The Birdcage, maybe."

Should I presume you'vee not seen 'Cat O Nine Tails' then?

And whilst the detective in Four Flies on Grey Velvet may be considered effete and even 'simpering', he is also brave and presented in a pivotal light to the story.

fine but a lot is going to come down to that. but summer is still making a good arg.

I'll be seeing more, but while I don't dismiss the horror genre's weight out of hand (certainly not prime Cronenberg -- or James Whale), DA's approach doesn't grab me so far.

SPOILER

And while the queer isn't the killer, he certainly gets the juiciest, most dragged-out (so to speak) demise.

Agreed.

Oh Hell yes! Talk about totally unprepared-for. It took me weeks to recover from that, there's a very similar scene in Communion, does anyone recall? That shit me up too.

I just finished Opera and good lord what a corny, sloppy film!

I mean the kill scenes were OK enough but the plot had crater-sized holes, several of them, and the way the characters (and the actors) acted generally made no fucking sense. Also, dude gets his eye pecked out and is just like "eh whatever nbd"

"the plot had crater-sized holes" - welcome to gialli!
"the way the characters (and the actors) acted generally made no fucking sense" - welcome to gialli!

But no, I'm kind of ambivalent about Opera myself. I think there are some classic Argento set-pieces in there, but it's not as consistent as it could be. I also remember finding the kill scene soundtracking pretty rubbish, but apparently the soundtrack is by Eno and Simonetti, which should be great...

I dreamed I saw Argento's latest and it was, by some miracle, not the worst movie ever made. I think I'll keep that rather than watch the movie itself.

xp no but I liked "Deep Red" v much and I thought it was much more engaging and interesting and not as awful, same with "Bird with the Crystal Plumage"

Hey Eric:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssE_6DmL_dk

And Stevie, have you seen Tenebre or Phenomena yet?

Oh. My. God.

Rewatched Phenomena the Halloween before last and assigned it a slight downgrade, which was a bummer given it has a [spoiler]-wielding [spoiler] who comes to the rescue in the last minute.

Tenebre, tho, remains a f'n masterpiece.

xps no but this guy I rly like told me to watch both of them so

General consensus seems to be that OPERA was Argento's last great film, so I wldn't step much further into the wreckage of the last two decades, tho' STENDAHL SYNDROME and SLEEPLESS both have their moments/adherents. But Eric OTM abt Tenebrae.

There are other good ones, hell, other great ones, but really if you're new to Argento what you want is Suspiria - Profondo Rosso - Tenebrae. Can't fuck with those three.

Suspiria is the one everyone can love. Tenebre is the one that will let you know if you're all-in on Argento or if you should probably just get out while the getting's good.

I've seen Suspiria, Deep Red, and Bird with the Crystal Plumage (and now Opera)

Inferno a must-see, too. It's honestly kind of awful, but in between the lost-in-translation weirdness ("cake factory" wtf), bizarre setpieces (the hot dog guy) and sub-Goblin soundtrack, there are brilliant moments like the underwater ballroom and a big gooey chunk of Keith Emerson cheese during the climax:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TchMJe9yCks

It's no Goblin/Simonetti, but it's like a distant cousin of Morricone's "Magic and Ecstasy"...

IS. Inferno IS a must-see. Movie good, watch with eyes, *grunt*

I actually love the Emerson score nearly as much as Goblin's for Suspiria.

So do i. It's my second favourite Argento film and the OTT synth-prog score definitely heightens the hysterical feel.

I love the synth oscillations at the first long-shot reveal of the Varelli building early on.

I put off sampling Argento this long on the grounds that I'm not a big horror/slasher watcher, but I finally gave Tenebre a whirl at a colleague's urging and, yeah, it's pretty terrific. I'm willing to subscribe to the "dream logic" reading of his films offered upthread; as a plot, the film makes very little sense and is filled with all sorts of "huh?!" moments even if you take it at face value (eg. why does a certain character even carry a fake knife?), so it is best to just read the whole thing as an elaborate and occasionally inexplicable (the doberman--wtf?) nightmare. Comparisons to De Palma are spot on--like "classic era" De Palma, Argento is clearly in love with filmmaking. The famous POV shot outside of the apartment building, for example; it makes no logical sense whatsoever, but it's just absolutely beautiful cinema, you know? Ditto the extended dream sequence on the beach--a lesser filmmaker would have used such a sequence purely for exposition (if they even used it at all), but Argento allows it to exist as this puzzling, erotic and eventually shocking little self-contained moment. A much smaller moment, when a character, leaving a room, pauses to offer a fleeting glance into...the empty room? the camera? the audience? was so startling and unexpected that I couldn't help rewinding the disc and watching the scene twice more.

So, what should be next? Deep Red? Suspiria? The Bird with the Crystal Plumage?

Deep Red is incredible

Deep Red is yr classic giallo. Suspiria and Inferno are more dreamlike. Watch them all!

And then eventually enjoy Opera, which is sort of the most crowd-pleasing synthesis of them all and undoubtedly the last great movie he made.

> So, what should be next? Deep Red? Suspiria? The Bird with the Crystal Plumage?

yes. all of those. they are probably Bird, Red, Suspiria in order of gore, with Suspiria being the bloodiest.

A friend of mine got Argento to sign her ass and she got it tattooed:

https://scontent-b-vie.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/t1.0-9/q73/s480x480/10322816_1502965846600077_5402545247248236674_n.jpg

any one else prefers inferno over suspiria? i like how it jettisons plot and central character in favor of people just wandering around brightly colored sets and getting brutally murdered.

Difficult. Score obviously strong argument for Suspiria. In terms of setting Suspiria's Schwarzwald/Hofbräuhaus/Königsplatz/Munich backdrop also has a clear advantage over the rather nondescript location of the house (was it Rome?) in Inferno, even considering the beautiful underwater scene in the latter.
But iirc the showdown in Inferno is a rather hilariously bonkers and unexpectedly arriving letdown compared to the just dull letdown of a finish of Suspiria and the story up to this point has lost all coherence anyway and is more Horror Jazz than actual narrative, so yeah: Inferno.

It's NYC in Inferno- there's even a scene set (allegedly, anyway) in Central Park. Probably shot in Rome, of course, Cinecitta or somewhere.

it was actually filmed on location, mario bava did some special effects for that scene.

Inferno is prob the more effective movie overall - it really sustains that dreamlike mood throughout - while the last third of Suspiria is a bit baggy. But the opening twenty minutes or so of Suspiria has to be Argento's greatest work, a hysterical symphony of colour, music, performance, editing, decor, all of it pitched at maximum intensity.

For many years the cat-eating-rat shot in Inferno was censored, one of the BBFC's dumber animal cruelty cuts.

Just finished Tenebrae per Telephone Thing's recommendation.

All the things I picked apart Opera for up thread also ring true here but the difference is that Opera was a really boring film and Tenebrae was not.

I really do hate the dubbed dialogue, though. Like soooo much.

though "Turn it DOWN!!! RRGGHHHH *HUFF* *HUFF*" was p wonderful

Just a heads up: a very limited edition blu-ray of a restored Suspiria is up for preorder as of today, and if the response is any indicator it won't be available for long (as I keep learning the hard way with these limited edition releases). It looks pretty fantastic (screenshots behind the link):

http://synapse-films.com/news/suspiria-comparison-pictures/

^ region 1

I’ve been working my way through Argento, have seen Deep Red, Suspiria, Inferno, and Tenebrae so far. Suspiria is my favorite, but I only watched it after seeing Guadagnino’s version, which I also really loved, even more I think. They are related but are very different films

Deep Red was so great. Tenebrae kept me up at night.

i'm loving digging through these now

Deep Red just really makes me appreciate how good his visuals are. the entire scene of chiseling open the hidden window at the abandoned house and the reveal of the artwork on the wall in the house and it's sudden reveal of a missing piece are marvelous.

I enjoyed Bird with the Crystal Plumage. excellent framing, not quite the heights of Deep Red, and a few draggy bits, but....whoknew I liked giallo after all

Phenomena is so awesome. I love how Jennifer Connelly manages to clean all the maggots and bile off her with that one errant fresh water pipe. All the stuff with the "infinite doorway visions" toward the beginning were incredible.

is Creepers different enough to be worth watching?

that film had real potential, but I couldn't get past the bad acting

referring to Phenomena

I didn't hate Phenomena, but I watched it with an astute friend who thought it was entertaining but awful, and that affected my opinion.

I most liked Suspiria and Deep Red. Tenebrae and Inferno were also interesting but not as good.

There were diminishing returns for me after that

This is not about Argento but there's no all-purpose giallo thread:

I LOVE Italian genre cinema of the 60's and 70's. Love the politics, clothes, design, the anything goes vibe and of course the soundtracks.

However, I am no good at dealing with gore and particularly violence against women in films, so have ignored the giallo genre while delving deep into spaghetti western and poliziotteschi.

So my question is, anyone know of any good efforts in the genre that lean more towards mystery or (even better) conspiracy thriller rather than the gore/horror side?

You might well favour the adjacent Poliziotteschi genre - essentially, Italian cop thrillers of the 1970s. These movies share some of the same DNA with Giallo - including not only a similar sense of seventies style but also, it has to be admitted, some fairly unreconstructed sexual politics and brutal violence - but with a greater emphasis on crime, corruption and politics (again, often of a pretty reactionary, all crims are scum kind). Some of Morricone's best 70s soundtrack work was done for Poliziotteschi.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poliziotteschi

I've watched tons of poliziotteschi, as per the previous post. :) "Milano Calibro 9" (smart) and "Street Law" (stoopid) are my faves.

Oops yes.

Saw him tonight introducing The Bird with the Crystal Plumage at Lincoln Center. It really is quite impressive as a first feature. The editing, which he hand-waved away in the Q&A (basically saying he edits when he shoots), is remarkably tight and good. Few if any contemporary directors would have the courage to edit like that. Was also struck for the first time by the humor in his writing… something that a large audience reminds you of when you hear the laughter in the room.