Is this the part where Greg Kot flies the rockist flag?

All artists have to understand that after a certain point, if they are truly successful, their art will become part of the world and they can't really control how people experience it, if they ever could to begin with.

Does this at all apply to Waits, though? If I was an advertiser and I wanted to use a song, a familiar song that I knew people lots of people liked, and were already warmly familiar with, I sure as fuck wouldn't use a Tom Waits song -- outside of "Downtown Train" (made famous via a Rod Stewart cover/normalization), how many of Waits' songs achieved the level of recognition that would make such a tactic effective?

This is all kind of the wrong issue, anyway. For one, lots of advertising (iPod and Volkswagen especially) nowadays seems to bank on an ad songs' *lack* of familiarity to a mass audience. Furthermore, I think for Waits the more immediately vexing issue about his relationship with music and ads isn't the use of his songs but the use of his singing style. His first lawsuit was with Frito-Lay over a soundalike in one commercial -- IIRC, this and a similar suit filed by Bette Midler over a car commercial helped establish a legal precedent for the notion that a singers' particular style could be treated their intellectual property. Such appropriation is probably even more harmful to an artist than the appropriation of a song. Ruining-by-assocation a single song is one thing; ruining-by-association an entire schtick or persona (especially when it's already as mannered* as Waits' is) can pre-empt an entire career -- you'll sound silly no matter what song you sing. I think of all the godawful cloying Randy Newman-isms in ads in the late-to-mid-eighties, including those Newman sang himself, as it's made even his most acid satire sound a touch cloying to these ears.

*I don't mean "mannered" in a perjorative sense, mind.

Now that I've used "cloying" twice, I'll rephrase it: thanks to the use of the Randy Newman meme in eighties commercials -- the dude himself recorded a commercial for Nutrasweet! -- drawling-white-boy-with-piano now sounds a bit too much to me like the voice of shilldom.

SEE THE OMEGA CODE

OMG WTF LOL HI SATAN YOU POURED YOUR LIFE INTO VERTIGO AND ALL YOU GOT WAS A LOUSY IPOD AD

Those songs do not come around easy. The melodies of most songs are A-B, A-B, and this is A-B-C-D. The construction of it is unique. And I want you to want us to have that song out on the radio. Because it's about other bands [who value songwriting] coming through. It's not just us. Rap-metal nearly put the white race in jeopardy [as a creative force]. It's a travesty. Those [rap-metal] people should just take suicide pills and go away. What we have to offer, if we're lucky, are lyrics, some interesting arrangements and beautiful melody. That's what rock music can do right now. To be relevant, to set the imagination off on a new generation coming up. Songs that up the ante.

HI BONO HAVE YOU HEARD "SOMETIMES YOU CAN'T MAKE IT ON YOUR OWN" YOUR GUITARIST EVIDENTLY DID NOT GET THE PROG MEMO

I dunno. Except for Bono's continuing inability to talk about hip-hop without being condescending, he sounds as alert, charming, and empathetic as usual (and I don't like U2). He's usually a step ahead of his interviewers, I'll say that.

I think it's pretty well tied into the vanity that it should be out there at all.

...but the associations are now hard-wired enough that you can name the ads the songs appeared in off the top of your head, which kinda makes Waits's point, partially anyhow.

We used to have this discussion around here every five minutes or so, it seemed. There's no question that the "Advertising bad!" position is rather unsophisticated and lets a lot drop. By the same token, though, I don't think that it's unfair or dogmatic to ask what happens to a text (a song, say) when it's deployed in a new context, and I think that to say "oh, nothing whatsoever happens, that's your fault as a listener" is disingenuous. Something does happen to a text broadly deployed. "Lust for Life" is a great example; the core of that song is drugs & casual sex, allusions which people who already got the song hear & laugh at when it's used in an ad, but it rankles me - just a little - to think that the good-time groove is all some people will ever know of that song. Iggy used the term "lust for life" in a fairly nuanced way; ads may be nuanced, but their musical components tend to be very carefully targeted. Certainly ambiguity in advertising isn't often considered a virtue, whereas in song it's a mark of craft.

A few thoughts there anyhow I guess.

Whoa!

I'd like to replace "rap-metal" with "U2's post-Pop output", plz.

And I need you to need me, Bono.

Greg Kot: "hey yeah you stood for all these watered down post-punk values and now you've betrayed them all and it sucks."

Bono: "Ah what you don't realize is that we are reinventing the wheel. The black race is greedy too, but we represent the white race. It's not our politics that changed the world, its actually our outstanding song writing and our lovely faces. It's not about the message, its about the medium. It's hard to make a living these days, what with being a rock star all of my adult life. Oh, the things we do for money. But we do them because we have a message. That Apple is cool looking. Did you know my dad died? KNEEL BEFORE ME, SON OF JOR-EL! KNEEL BEFORE ZOD!"

That's a really important point that I want to get across to you. There's this poverty of ambition, in terms of what rock people will do to promote their work. That's a critical issue to me. The excitement of punk rock, in the Irish and UK scene when we were coming up, was seeing our favorite band on "Top of the Pops," right next to the "enemy." That would be exciting. We did talk shows, TV shows, back then. The great moments of rock 'n' roll were never off in some corner of the music world, in a self-constructed ghetto. I don't like that kind of thinking. I know some of it exists, and some of our best friends are part of it. It's not for me. Progressive rock was the enemy in 1976. And it still is. And it has many, many faces. This beast is lurking everywhere. It can describe itself as indie rock. It's the same [blanking] thing. It's misery. I have seen so many great minds struck down by it. . . . When you suggest we're betraying ourselves by doing TV shows and promotional stuff, to me the Super Bowl was our Ed Sullivan moment. It just came 25 years later. I didn't expect it. But it is one of the moments I'm most proud of in my life.

Dear Bono, plz fuck off and die forever xoxox

rollin' with heaven 17 in this bitch.

Anyway, I thought they both did pretty okay. I think U2's big sellout maneuvers lately have been irritating--mostly the ones that have to do with these recent back-to-basics records--but I also think, having seen U2 in concert, that the whole 'this song is only good if it's HUGE' thing is kind of true. The hugeness of their show is amazing. They are one of the only bands in the world that can sell out months worth of stadiums in countries on every continent, and that fact that in a good U2 show every one of the tens of thousands of people there knows the words and sings along to 'all i want is you' makes the show an amazing experience. and U2 do this while writing songs that are, IMO, good!

i have to say: if you're going to be all anti-rockist or whatever, you can't then hold bono to your puritan principles of proper rockstar behavior, whatever they may be.

(of course, now I know there's no difference between "Runaway" or "Livin' On A Prayer" and "Mysterious Ways" or "Two Hearts Beat As One." But Larry Mullen Jr sure is foxier than Tico Torres)

But I don't get how it's half-arsed. Haven't you read your Frankfurt School? CAPITALISM IS THE ENEMY. The Man is real and he is assimilating U2! The whole point is that Bono's 'hugeness' ambition is also awesome, and unfortunately the two principles are in conflict. That's part of what makes watching U2 fun--esp. around the time of "Achtung Baby" and "Pop."

Taking Sides: Theodor Adorno vs Walter Benjamin

The surgeon general has determined that listening to progressive rock may lead to Alzheimer's, stroke or other dementias.

In other words, I think it's fine when an artist chooses to let their work be used in a commercial, but if the artist chooses not to, I mean Jesus Christ, it's not like it's too hard to find ripoffs songs/artists. If you can't get the Killers, go with the Bravery, you know?

See, I'd rather it was Bon Jovi, like much much rather, since their songs are better and also they don't pose as though they were feckin' CULTURALLY RELEVANT, MAAAN like teh Bono.

and Larry's got the brains too.

True - he's the one who stays out of the papers. And he's made lots and lots of money.

Everytime I read that word, I have the sudden compulsion to say something like:

"Shut up you fucking self-important pretentious loser."

But I never would, that's rude.

But no matter what you think of Bono or what he's said or done, I tend to agree somewhat when he says that the iPod is the "most beautiful object art" in music culture since the electric guitar. Agree?

http://www.yenra.com/george-foreman-grill/foreman-grill.jpg

"Shut up you fucking self-important pretentious loser."

This is the kind of intelligent debate we need more of.

[IMG]http://www.imagehosting.us/imagehosting/showimg.jpg/?id=481559[/IMG]

http://www.imagehosting.us/imagehosting/showimg.jpg/?id=481559

Must...stop...listening...to...Anal...Cunt...

anyway...

GRRRR PRO TOOL BUTT PIRATES AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRR!

anyhow, WRONG

http://killingmylobster.com/albums/goooaal/keytar_mark_yess_copy.jpg

http://software.cyber-development.com/products/images/electronic_drum.jpg

This is the kind of intelligent debate we need more of.

"Intelligent debate" is the last thing we need. It's fucking music. Get over your own alleged importance.

I've long switched over to extra lean ground beef, but I find a little worscetshire (sp?) sauce and garlic powder mixed in with the beef makes for a tasty burger!

U2 might be a lot of things, but it's not Fucking music.

You are such a load.

http://www.videohelp.com/forum/images/guides/p1057837/tnt.jpg

One's in the MoMA's permanent collection, if you think I'm being a cheese-hound.

as an "indie rock" musician I gotta say Bono's actually kinda right - I *do* prefer my music to be in "a ghetto", because I don't see any virtue in being willfully absorbed into the larger marketplace. just let me have my little corner over here where no one's looking and I can do whatever I want....

Anyway, since when was this thread about music? I thought it was:

TS: Bloated Rock Hax0rz Who Should Have Retired A Decade Ago And Would Have If Not For The Opportunity To Do Good In The World That Comes With Money And Fame But Somehow Come Off As Even Bigger Douches Than If They Just Did It For The Money vs. Music-Writer-Slash-Consumer-Advocates Who Position Themselves As The Temple Guardians Of Teh Realness

Meanwhile, I can't believe George Foreman allowed his name on a kitchen gadget. Sellout/Douche.

I kiss you M@tt. There's the thread in a nutshell.

Off now to check the going rate to have "GoldenPalace.com" tattooed on Iggy Pop's back.

Now, that I've shilled... where's my money?

BONO: That's a really important point that I want to get across to you. There's this poverty of ambition, in terms of what rock people will do to promote their work. That's a critical issue to me.

The excitement of punk rock, in the Irish and UK scene when we were coming up, was seeing our favorite band on "Top of the Pops," right next to the "enemy." That would be exciting. We did talk shows, TV shows, back then. The great moments of rock 'n' roll were never off in some corner of the music world, in a self-constructed ghetto. I don't like that kind of thinking. I know some of it exists, and some of our best friends are part of it. It's not for me.

Progressive rock was the enemy in 1976. And it still is. And it has many, many faces. This beast is lurking everywhere. It can describe itself as indie rock. It's the same [blanking] thing. It's misery. I have seen so many great minds struck down by it.

Lol is that a recent quote?

no, from the article upthread