Taking Sides: Penderecki or Ligeti?

Messiaen = Prog ov the GodZoR

MS now bax0r in nfaY's good books after MEAN & CRUEL prog swipe on "rare footage" thread.

Yeah, like sinker give 2 hoots ;)

x0x0

norman fay: my prog remarXoR = biggin up bill bailey not biggin down you: BB = superior to Phil "porky the cokehead" JupiToss in every way, including he luvs prog. OK, obv less than you, yes, but this meant as praise not blame.

G. Michael Koenig = the Gary Numan of Köln WDR discuss

B(ill)B(ailey) = superior to Phil "porky the cokehead" JupiToss in every way

This = undeniably true. Thanx mark!

x0x0

I thought there was a more active Penderecki thread but maybe I was wrong. Anyway, he is 79 today so happy birthday:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwaEOyOw9tk

Penderecki = mark-down Lutoslawski = Radiohead for strings

Super prescient quote from mark s as Jonny Greenwood did an album with him last year.

Do you still feel the same way about Ligeti Vln Concerto, Sund4r? (I have to confess I think it's pretty unsatisfying).

I prefer Ligeti to Penderecki, Ligeti's works are diverse in execution, yet singular in intent. And though some of his scores are aleatoric ("Artikulation"), most are implemented (all the famous ones) and I... kind of respect that more?

Also I really can't get behind a composer who names his piece "Threnody to the victims of Hiroshima" sorry

penderecki seemed to hit his peak early on whereas ligeti's oeuvre has a lot to explore from the earliest to the last pieces

it's weird to read contemporary music reviews from the early 60s — people thought penderecki was the future of music for a hot second

Also I really can't get behind a composer who names his piece "Threnody to the victims of Hiroshima" sorry

― * (flamboyant goon tie included), Sunday, 10 March 2013 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Never heard but I've not the faintest bit of confidence it would be any good.

That's NUTS that you haven't heard it it is literally everywhere
It is a good piece, one of the most effective aleatoric pieces I've heard! Worst title tho

Everywhere?!?! Was it no.1 in the classical charts for 59 weeks that year?

Also hadn't heard Britten's Requiem till recently.

Lutoslawski (from a couple of pieces I've heard...i am terrible on Polish composers which is bad of me) vs Ligeti would be a better fight.

"In film, excerpts from Threnody to the Victims of Hiroshima are used in Stanley Kubrick's 1980 adaptation of The Shining, the 2006 dystopian film Children of Men, as well as David Lynch's Inland Empire."

Also I'd hazard a guess that it is the most programmed work of any composer mentioned itt (save "4tet for the end of time")

Also I really can't get behind a composer who names his piece "Threnody to the victims of Hiroshima" sorry

truly the jonathan safran foer of avant garde composer dudes.

(p.s. mark s's prescience may not have been quite as prescient as it looked, iirc jonny greewood has been going on about his penderecki influence forever, e.g. 'climbing up the walls'.)

"Literally everywhere" = lol but it is postwar avant-garde canon. Penderecki's use of extended string techniques at that time was really great imo. Julio, hear it stat!

I haven't listened to Ligeti's Violin Concerto in a while tbh. I'll try to do it today.

It is actually everywhere and when xyzzzz hears it he'll surely say "oh THAT thing"

Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima is one of the most startlingly beautiful things I have ever heard, but yes, this goes to Ligeti.

But yeah, the Ligeti Violin Concerto, sund4r. It tears my heart out.

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Ligeti over Penderecki, Lutoslawski over both.

Ligeti is like ravel, each one of his pieces is a devilishly cunning contraption, each built for a v specific purpose.

Jon otm.

How amazing is Ligeti's organ music? This piece where the organist puts his arm down on a stop-less swell to overdrive the wind, bend the pitch?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3gVRPmx9cI

HOW AMAZING IS THIS:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esDkIW6oEBg

I love Lutoslawski but have barely scratched the surface. I regularly listen to and recommend the String Quartet, Chain 2, Symphony #4. I haven't come round to enjoying the cello concerto. What's next?

Do you still feel the same way about Ligeti Vln Concerto, Sund4r? (I have to confess I think it's pretty unsatisfying).

I just listened to it (Christina Astrand/Danish Natl Radio Symphony Orchestra/Thomas Dausgaard) and, yep, I think it's all time, just about a perfect piece. I'd be interested in hearing more about what you think. Out of curiosity, do you prefer Gubaidulina's Offertorium? (I ask because I knew a string player who was lukewarm about the Ligeti but mad about the Gubaidulina, which I like but don't rate as highly. I wonder if it's something about the violin writing, if perhaps the Gubaidulina is more idiomatic or enjoyable to play.)

And though some of his scores are aleatoric ("Artikulation"), most are implemented (all the famous ones) and I... kind of respect that more?

As someone who has written my fair share (probably more) of aleatoric music, I think I agree!

Btw, I was probably not being fair enough to Ligeti's 60s works in the OP. I love his wind quintets, btw, which didn't come up itt. (The traditionalist, Bartok-revering side of me might even prefer the Six Bagatelles to the 10 Pieces!) The Etudes for piano (1985-2001) are really great too.

That was a nice break from 70s rock, btw.

I will check out that specific recording, thanks Sund4r.

Gubaidulina bugs me sometimes-- inconsistency in her harmonic language-- but I appreciate "Offertorium" in that it honours the concerto form while reframing it in a nice way. That is to say, a juicy part, orchestra assisting the soloist rather than accompanying it.

RIP Penderecki.

I had no idea he was still alive, so this news was a surprise. listened to the Passion According to St Luke in his memory this AM. What a beautiful piece of music.

We've been talking about in the rolling 2020 classical thread, if anyone's interested:

Rolling Classical 2020

I'm surprised that so many people are saying that. He was active and in the public eye until the end, collaborating with Jonny Greenwood in 2012, winning a Grammy in 2017.

You and me both. And yet:

Rolling Obituary Thread: 2020

Don't suppose too many people have been keeping tabs on his career tbf.

Apparently not

Didn't he conduct Beth Gibbons in Gorecki's 3rd like, last year? TBF I didn't know if he was alive or not until that CD got announced in Feb/March of '19.

Yep, listening to it now.