Throwing Muses: C-o-D

The distinction I make here also has a slightly bogus look. I haven't expressed it too well. But I suppose my point is: there is no difference, really - at least *in this particular context* - between the Smiths (the great pop group who changed so many of our lives) and "The Smiths" ("the great pop group who changed so many of our lives").

The Smiths (the band) = either "they saved my angsty teenage life" or "miserable whinging git Morrosey and his Elvis-ripping off henchmen" while The Smiths (the legend) = greatest British band since the Beatles, etc. etc. etc. and all the dissecting of the legend and the personalitys that shaped it and so on.

I was comparing TM to the legend, in terms of their status as giants of music.

Did I say "their"?

What you say above is eloquent and admirable. I wonder if one day you will be able to convince me of it. And I wonder what it would take.

I "heart" you, Stevie.

The physical - yes. "House Tornado" - yes (it made no sense to me and I ignored the tape for weeks; it made sense somewhere near the perimeter of an MoD firing range on Formby beach, late summer '89, wind whipping sand into my headphones).

The most excited I've ever been at a gig - Muses, Trent Poly, Feb '91. The most excited I've ever been about a forthcoming release - "The Real Ramona", Feb '91. The most disappointed I've ever been by an eagerly-awaited release - "Red Heaven", Aug '92.

Right - come on, Roger...

It must seem unreasonable of me to nitpick away at it like this. I'm not trying to say they're a Dud. I just don't quite see the Classic bit, either, on the whole.

"Not Too Soon" sounds totally out of place on _The Real Ramona_. It sticks out like a polished diamond in a pile of tarnished silver dollars. And it's Tanya's best TM offering, by a wide country hectare.

And it's funny that someone (Sean) thinks that _Hips & Makers_ is a back-to-basics move. I felt the same way, but I think that _University_ was actually recorded BEFORE _Hips & Makers_. I forget where I heard that, but I used that information (& that theory) as the foundation for my breathless praise of _Limbo_ on my site.

I can't remember the thread where this discussion took place.

BUT all I was really looking for from our Scouse friends was a (favourable) description which was a little bit 'closer to the music'. Stevie's stuff about Camille Paglia is great - but it's great cos Stevie is great, not (I submit) because TH are great (and CERTAINLY not cos Camille Paglia is great; heaven forfend).

I appreciate that the desire for a description which is 'closer to the music' might be another chimera - another senseless request which our Scouse friends will find it impossible to fulfil. At the end of the day (Clive), I have a feeling that they are talking as much about themselves as about TM - who (I suspect) were very important to them at a certain time in their lives and have thus made a kind of emotional imprint that they can't really explain. That is not a criticism - it might be the best reason for loving a bit of pop music (I think it's my usual reason). It's just that it's not very 'transferrable'. I can appreciate that TM meant something to little Stevie T when he was a wee boy writing vast dissertations for Christopher Bigsby - but I can't hear that in their records. (Or can I?)

You have clearly forgotten the early 90s, when every band from Suede to Blur was described as "The Best British Band Since The Smiths". That's legendeering on a scale with the B**tles.

Back on TM again, yesterday afternoon at the HMV mega-sale, I actually went and bought a copy of House Tornado and Fat Skiier on CD to replace vinyl back in storage. Damn ILM for influencing my record buying habits!!! Second time this week!

Wrong again.

I have not forgotten the early 90s. At least, not totally. I wish I could remember them a little more vividly than I do - but really, that's another thread entirely.

Your argument now seems to be that because some media people in the early 90s implied that the Smiths were a great band, they're not really a great band - that was just all Legend stuff. Whereas (you asserted above) talking about 'That Miserable Git Morrissey' is not Legend-peddling, but is simply the rough, unvarnished Truth.

From my POV (which as ever is not anyone else's POV), the Smiths are perhaps the greatest British band after the Beatles. Put it another way: they are perhaps the most important band to me ever. This is not much to do with constructing Legends; it's just the way I feel about this band. (I don't ask anyone else to share this feeling.)

I fear that what this 'debate' comes down to is that you don't like the Smiths much, and I do. Fear not, I have no desire to make you like them more.

But that does not stop them from having a "Legend" which has far overtaken either their music or their lasting influence. You are just unable to see them because your devotion outweighs your rationality.

If some people/lots of people/everyone except me/no-one thinks a particular artist is the best ever it couldn't possibly change the way that I think by itself. (However,weight of opinion might suggest that I have another listen and I COULD have been wrong all along : "Loveless". That's different.)

Masonic Boom: disappointed by your resort to cheap abuse. I maintain that you are mistaken and your distinction is, in this instance, utterly BOGUS. BUT you were right about one thing earlier: this is the Muses thread and we ought to be discussing them.

Totally sublime, forgive-them-anything-for-that Throwing Muses moment which Scouse worshippers at shrine of Hersh have not mentioned (perhaps don't like?): TWO STEP.

Sean Carruthers - Yes it rocks, but thats not its why it holds its own. Yes, maybe they did have something to prove and in my mind they did. The Real Ramona was a great album, but a follow-on would've been impossible. With Donelly onboard, it could've easily turned out to be little more than sugar-coated pop dross. Not that I dislike Donelly's post-Muses ventures, its just that I think another Ramona would've involved too many compromises. Tanya and Kristin were obviously going in different directions.

I agree with Dr C. - Red Heaven is a classic album. Its raw and fresh, like one of them just said "well its just me and you now, lets get down to it". Red Heaven really conveys a sense of rapport, especially Rosetta Stone. Kristin seems to hit upon something that transcends the 'bit'iness of some of their previous outings. To me, it appears as if she finally managed to give all her ambivalence a face of its own. Red Heaven has a very rich character, indeed. If they were attempting to reinstate a more personal and intimate sense of identity, then I think they certainly achieved it.

Given the choice between:-

a) a "chilling and slinky" male fantasy involving Kristin Hersh, ice cream and a black negligee.

and

b) the opportunity to ride along with someone blowing out the cobwebs during a transitional phase in their life.

... I would take the latter ;)

I definitely wouldn't say that you're only familiar with the "dud album", Dyson. From what I've heard of her discography it sounds like Hersh started with her most apocalyptic (or grating, depending on your tastes) work and then gradually mellowed, while remaining off-kilter and "in touch with her emotions". I'd certainly give the older stuff a try, but it's pretty up in the air what you'll prefer. I'm not sure myself, but my girlfriend would vote for "The Real Ramona" as her fave.

Would someone in the recording industry PLEASE compile all those odd EP / b-side / single tracks onto one accesible compact disc type object? Yo, Ivo! (This is especially urgent & key as I've found a SLSKer w/ the entire TM disco available for D/L - including the new album! - BUT a) they've 600+ people in their queue and b) their D/L speed is 0.8!)

David R. is BONKERS.

Get these and be a better human being:

HOUSE TORNADO + THE FAT SKIER
RED HEAVEN
LIMBO

Then go after all the others. When you're done, start with the Pixies.

I just saw Kristin play live about a year ago, and she's still got it.

http://www.inkblotmagazine.com/rev-archive/images/ca_muses.jpg

all! about! this!

Red Heaven is splendid as well, but really, The Real Ramona balances pop and barbed, spiky unease better than any album i've ever heard by anyone ever, FACT.

er...Tanya & Kristin are back working together? Did I miss a meeting? Details, STAT!

It's too different from the first album or 'real ramona' to really allow for easy comparison but... well, I liked 'red heaven' and 'imbo' ok but never ever listen to them. The songwriting here hasn't been so consistently on since the first two albums and eps. I'm 100% re-smitten.

but less classic after kristen started taking her meds. or something.

i have "soap and water" in my head all the time.

In the mid 90s I interviewed them for a no-circulation music zine - in Australia - and when they toured they invited me and a friend to the band room after, gave us drinks and cigarettes, Bernie showed me how to open a bottle using another bottle … it was a blast and they were such nice folks. K was a bit reserved after delivering a huge show but I probably would have passed out if I’d talked to her.

Fun fact: I played "Hate My Way" for my family on or about Xmas day, from my phone. In boring moments we've developed a game where one nominates "the best song ever", choosing something fresh each time. This might have been the first time there were demands that such a selection be turned off lol.

jesus christ I told my same little fan boy story twice in the same thread, wow cool guy

I love K. Hersh pretty much across the board. Saw her a couple years ago with Bob Mould and she remains a compelling presence.

For Muses particularly, of course yes to University ("Bright Yellow Gun" already mentioned upthread) but for many persons of my age and class and temperament, there is an iconic scene in Empire Records set to the song "Snakeface." It is a memorable one.

all time opening couplet

"I could be a smack freak
and hate society
I could hate God
and blame dad"

the next song's opening line is right up there too.

"He won't ride in
Cars anymore
It reminds him of
Blowjobs"

xp I've also thought "Hate My Way" is the "best song ever" at times, but it's definitely something that would freak out normies.

I think Limbo is their best album after the debut. It's always been underrated coming after University, made worse by its absence from streaming due to being on Ryko. It has my favorite rhythm guitar tone ever-- shimmery, surfy, just perfect

My dad brought Limbo home to me from a work trip to Chicago (we lived in Norway) when I was 12, after an older cousin had bought University for my birthday the year before. Those records (as well as Doolittle, which the same cousin bought me for Xmas the same year) rewired my brain.

My college station played "Bright Yellow Gun" a few times in early '95 (approximately as much as they played Belly's "Seal My Fate"), but it's hard to tell what their profile was like. Was University a thing in alterna-music circles?

J. Sam otm re the guitars on Limbo. The solo on The Field, god yes.

Was University a thing in alterna-music circles?

It certainly was in the Boston area, lots of play on WFNX.

seems like it got a decent promotional push — makes sense since Belly and the Breeders had broken through to some extent. i saw a pretty under-attended show on the University tour though.

University came right after Belly/Breeders for me and was just what I needed. I vividly remember the big Rolling Stone story on Throwing Muses, with its, uh, provocative photos (that few magazines would dare to stage now).

I miss the all-consuming fervour I used to feel for this band

The go listen to their entire catalog in a row, it'll reignite it.

I found Red Heaven in a pawn shop and tried it because I knew there was some connection to Belly, who I was a big fan of. “Pearl” won me over big time.

It's a great song. I recommend their 2003 self-title for more of that giant-wave vibe.

Limbo is the last one that I spent time with, but I don't remember a lot of it. University was the big one for me, and the first one. I had a shirt with a bright yellow gun on it which I probably wouldn't wear today.

Saw Kristin and Vic Chesnutt in Atlanta. If I remember right, they both had acoustic guitars and would go back and forth, trading songs. Very, very good.

I had the same shirt and thoughtlessly put it on a few days after the Port Arthur gun massacre (which was near my city). Had to retreat into a bathroom and flip it inside out when I realised the looks were not from Throwing Muses fans.

So I sit up late in the morning
And ask myself again
How do they kill children?
And why do I wanna die?
They can no longer move
I can no longer be still

^chills down the spine at that part

am down with a Throwing Muses listening thread

yes please

I don't know if the "Mr. Huberty" reference in "Hate My Way" is common knowledge (I only learned about it a few years ago), but he's the man responsible for a 1984 mass shooting at a McDonald's in California:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Ysidro_McDonald%27s_massacre
This song still rattles me every time I listen to it, after 30+ years...

Matt I think I was at that 94 show too - there was merch that I recall was a tomato or apple on the front of the tshirt? And I was mad I couldnt buy one cos I hadn't brought any extra money with me (which seems bonkers but in those days I didnt drink).

I also have the red bright yello gun tshirt ha.

hi guys, this revive made me dig out my old external drive so i could hear limbo again. thank you for the discussion and reminder of this masterpiece! it's such a monolithic album of 90s indie-ness and every goddamn song is arranged so incredibly perfect. it rocks out, it does ballads, classic jangly chamber pop, and a whole lot of heart. the way a lot of the songs just drop and change direction is so disorienting and exhilarating —— i could kiss you for remembering my address for crying out loud. i know i talk a big mess about the first album being kristin's definitive statement (and i probably will ride with that in the end); but if that album was unrefined, unfiltered, unadulterated chaotic kristin, limbo is all of those things polished over and made to be the best versions of themselves. i used to ride hard for "tar kissers" and swore up and down that was the pinnacle of this era. but listening now, i have at least 5 tracks that i could see saying the same exact thing about (and none of them are "tar kissers" — though that one still smashes). i was wanting to pick a song to put on my radio station playlist, but i can't narrow it down further than half of the damn album! is limbo her best work? dunno, but it sounds better than ever.

(and it has one of the prettiest/best hidden tracks ever with "white bikini sand")

i had some extras saved on that drive and i wanted to play you guys the demo of "serene" (retitled here "serene swing") so i had to upload it to youtube—
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c94BhagMCP4

i guess if forced to pick a single favorite track right now, it's definitely "serene." the original album version is pretty nice chamber pop and one of the album's calmest moments. "serene swing" though — !!?!?! clattering and just the complete opposite of everything about the finished version. really dig the crazy horse vibes. this fucking woman. what an absolute titan.

i have not the language to convey what i'm saying here so i'm just going to spit—

that transition from "shark" to "white bikini sand" just has something so entirely period specific to it. like there's certain media or technology that we sometimes say, "well that could have only worked in the (time period)." and i think about that transition "shark" is ultimately a rewarding song, but it's noisy, kind of dissonant. it ends on a long fadeout, an unsure coda. then "white bikini sand" comes in and is nothing but steady pleasant vibes. and it works so perfectly that the only cliche i can come up with is that it only would worked in the 90s.

I love Limbo too, it hit hard after a run of slightly diminishing, more cluttered albums and they came back ripped and focused as a trio. Everything about this record is a reinvention, down to the artwork, and I fell in love with them all over. Favourite is probably the title track, so apocalyptic and off-kilter, but it's ALL gold. Also loved the fast version of Teller they played on the tour.

slightly disappointed that, of all the times i've seen kristin in all of her various roles, they've never played anything from limbo.

Ignore my stupidity, of course University was a trio album as well, but Limbo was much gnarlier and more muscular.

def feels like a lost album these days (so does the kind of contemporaneous bob mould self titled album on ryko)

also hi again, sorry for tangent--

if you like the more orchestrated, multi-parted beach boys-esque turns mid song, and more of kristin's wry, yowling narratives and you've never dug into her albums sky motel and sunny border blue, do yourself a favor and visit/revisit. it's almost like an epic spiritual trilogy in hindsight -- that was basically her trajectory from 96-02: limbo-> sky motel-> sunny border blue. each album gets a bit more reflective and rootsy until sunny border blue contains a few songs about her old band and ends with pure catharsis on "listerine." gives me chills just thinking about it. anyway, yeah: those albums maybe don't ROCK as hard, but are definitely part of the same universe as limbo. highly recommended.

jeez she has a new album and I didn't even know

(Clear Pond Road released on May 30th)