Taking Sides: Genesis 1970-1977 Vs. Genesis 1978-91

I like most of "Duke" (particularly the Tony Banks penned tracks), but I don't like "Misunderstanding" so much. A bit too much of a basic radio friendly pop song.

Geir in OTM shock.

Just bought this shirt:

http://i1.cpcache.com/product/441455245/dark_tshirt.jpg?color=KellyGreen&height=460&width=460

But it's too small! Any of you folks little? I'm only 5'7", and it's just too tight on me. I'd be happy to get it to a good home.

'Dance On A Volcano' rules.

Who the hell puts Mike second?

So many Genesis threads. But this is the one where I address the new BBC doc "Together and Apart," which is mostly fine, though man, is Tony Banks a dick.

Did learn Phil's vocals on "Mama" were inspired by the laugh on Grandmaster Flash's "Message."

man, is Tony Banks a dick.

a relief after years of blank affability

2112

Also, Phil is rocking these awesome old man glasses.

http://cdn.stereogum.com/files/2014/06/phil-collins-alamo-rehearsals.jpg

If Phil Collins were bleeding I'd rub rock salt in his wounds #nomisunderstanding.

I didn't think the doc was very good. It didn't mention Wind and Wuthering which is one of Genesis's best albums. More egregiously, it didn't mention Tony Stratton-Smith or Charisma once.

Well there wasn't enough Hackett, obviously, whether that was a producer problem or a band thing....weird set up of the 4/5 of them together.

the 'talking heads' journalists, chris roberts aside, were terrible, but the actual genesis members gave good value in the documentary

just reading Bimble upthread

peace dude x x

Well there wasn't enough Hackett, obviously, whether that was a producer problem or a band thing....weird set up of the 4/5 of them together.

Hackett wasn't happy about the doc: http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/oct/06/steve-hackett-bbc-new-genesis-together-and-apart-documentary-biased-account-of-band

man, is Tony Banks a dick.

There are many moments in the boxed set docs where Banks says something like, "I was proud of the music I'd written, and Gabriel's vocals messed it up" for things like "Supper's Ready." The Eno bio also mentions Banks being jealous or just generally dickish about Eno's involvement with Lamb.

Sounds like if Banks had always had his way, Genesis records would be little more than bland psuedo-baroque keyboard solos.

Obviously the doc had to be sort of fast-forward, especially since they touch on the solo stuff, too, which in the case of Phil and Pete could support their own docs. A lot of the albums barely get a mention, or get mentioned in passing, with the focus on one song (Three gets Follow You, self-titled gets Mama). There's a surprising amount of We Can't Dance, and obv. none of that last album, and even though there's no John Mayhew, there is plenty of Anthony Phillips, or discussion of Banks playing guitar (which gets a little overlooked). But yeah, the guys in the band were pretty open. Sure, not enough Hackett, and odd that it was Gabriel and the other three for so much of it. But I thought it was important that it touched on the writing credits, namely that Tony and Mike were responsible for a lot of the stuff Phil gets blamed for, like the mawkish streak that begins with "Follow You, Follow Me," their first real modern ballad, which Mike wrote, or that it wasn't until the end that Phil got more of his lyrics on the albums. I also liked how they pointed out that even after they went pop there were always a couple of long songs on the records, and live they didn't shy away from the epics (old or contemporary) either. I like how much Phil just liked playing, and how while everyone else was struggling he was happy playing away in his giant drum world. Or how later he seemed so ubiquitous because people kept sending opportunities his way and just kept saying yes, because how could you say no to playing with Robert Plant or whomever?

But yeah, Tony is a total passive-aggressive dick. It's always someone fighting with Tony, whether the other guys in the band, or Gabriel, or whomever, or Tony sniffing that he doesn't like a direction, or discounting someone's input. Though Eno was only there for a day or something, and only messed with a couple of tracks. Sounds like Tony doesn't like "Lamb" at all.

Per Hackett, the dude wants it both ways, to be respected as a solo artist but also a guy who makes his living doing Genesis covers, including stuff like The Knife, which he had absolutely nothing to do with.

Yeah, I learned a few years ago that Rutherford deserves the blame for the "Land of Confusion" lyrics.

Saw it put recently that Tony is actually the person everyone thinks Phil is.

Gutted I missed the doc when it aired over here (although I'm sure it'll turn up on iPlayer again at some point) - I'm a very casual Genesis fan but I find their career intriguing, also I've recently discovered how great an album Trick of the Tail is.

Dance on a Volcano blew my mind as a 14 year old

How many Genesis documentaries have there been now? This must be at least the third.

Yeah, there do seem to be a bunch. It's not even a big deal they "reunited" with Gabriel and Hackett, since they do that all time, too, as needed. Just usually not musically.

They pretty much can't reunite musically, at least not with Phil -- he hasn't been able to physically play the drums for a couple of years now due to back problems. Watching old Genesis clips I think, ugh, dude, you shouldn't slouch like that!

Reportedly his condition has improved. That would be a good poll, musicians supposedly down for the count who came back. Like Pete Townsend, Linda Thompson or Dave Mustaine.

Townshend not only came back after his bike accident, but vaulted way past all of his contemporaries. He's been digging into this insane Coltrane-esque fingerpicking approach since around 1999-2000.

Would be interesting to see if Phil can come back, but even before his back troubles, he could (by his own admission) barely keep up with a Genesis cover band when they asked him to sit in once in the early '00s.

was going to say, i've heard rumblings phil might be up for playing some drums again.

xp

xpost That Genesis tribute band is The Musical Box, which is insanely talented, well-rehearsed and focuses on the Gabriel years. They not only have the blessing of the real band, but for a time they had a left-handed bald drummer who could sing. Anyone would struggle dropped into that environment, let alone Phil c. 2005 or whenever. Those '70s chops of his were insane.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWZT0EHKjCk

There's a nice story about Peter Gabriel taking his daughter to a Musical Box gig and she turns to him and goes "Dad, is this really what you used to do?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlX4moDYEmA

I've seen these guys do both "Lamb" and "Selling," and they kill it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CePekvsztD4

yeah I'd love to see them, they played in my town but I was away at the time :(

I saw ReGenesis once and they were pretty good but not a patch on these guys

Yeah, I didn't mean to suggest that "a Genesis cover band" was some random group playing 25-cent wings night down the street. By all accounts, The Musical Box -- including, as you mentioned, those of the members of Genesis -- are amazing.

Here's Phil's account:
http://www.genesis-news.com/c-The-Musical-Box-Phil-Collins-about-his-guest-performance-in-Geneva-s238.html

It ended up that we decided that I would play their encore of The Musical Box. I left it till the day of the show... a dangerous thing to do !!! I went downstairs to my basement where my drums are, and I tried to play along to the Genesis version.... DISASTER. What would have been a problem for some drummers, the fast bass drum parts for example, were no problem for me... but everything else.... WHOA !!! I realised that I was trying to play things that I'd played 30 years ago. This was not going to happen.

multiple xposts

I wonder if that was the night he was shamed into quitting the music biz

I can't remember to what extent it comes across in the documentary, but Phil seems an excessively melancholy soul in his dotage

More drummers should be shamed IMO

In my experience drummers are often perfectly capable of shaming themselves

Phil Collins is really unique in that he was a very high level musician who as a drummer played on some other big records that had this second life as a pop soul singer. I always thought it was pretty telling that Genesis had to go get a ringer of a drummer like Chester Thompson to take his place, a guy that had been able to handle the drum chair with some jazz heavyweights in Weather Report and fit in quite well with Frank Zappa's scripted lunacy in 7/16 time.

A bad back and it's hazards has taken out more than a few drummers. Pretty much the long time drummer of Opeth I believe had to leave that group with similar back issues.

I'd think it possible that some of the Dead members have probably had to think on their feet trying to to sit in with the Dark Star Orchestra. This Genesis cover group "The Musical Box" seems to get just as fanatical on trying to capture it all in total. I suppose in itself, it's not different than modern combos doing a tribute like the Mingus Big Band or the various modern Arkestra type groups. It's trying to capture what made the original recordings and the music interesting.

Roger Miller was down for the count in the '80s, wasn't he?

I've considered seeing TMB, but something makes me a little uneasy about it. Genesis were playing these grotty little halls for dirt cheap back in the day, and there's something de-legitimizing to see a fancy shindig catering to old yuppies presenting the same material. I'd rather see today's unknown bands in urine-smelling pits. Doesn't mean that I don't respect what TMB are doing, but I don't see myself as part of their audience.

It doesn't feel like nostalgia, at least, it feels like real love for the band and music, though. That is, the crowd at TMB was really no different than the crowd I saw at King Crimson earlier this year.

And yeah I actually had Roger Miller before I hit submit, but took him out and replace him with Linda Thompson for a) gender diversity and b) in case someone thought of the country singer. Miller these days, fwiw, plays with headphones on, often behind or away from the amp.

FYI, where the "Lamb" tour played Chicago back in '74:
http://mydrinkon.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Auditorium-Theatre-photo-credit-James-Steinkamp-1024x840.jpg

wow that is rad

Is that the Auditorium? My brother saw Van Morrison there in the mid-80s and said it was by far the best-sounding venue in the Chicago area.

Oh, yeah, it sounds great. I've seen ... Wilco, Tori Amos, Tool (!), Swell Season, Eddie Vedder, Tom Waits, White Stripes, Bjork, Dead Can Dance ... buncha stuff there. Very pretty to look at.

There are many moments in the boxed set docs where Banks says something like, "I was proud of the music I'd written, and Gabriel's vocals messed it up" for things like "Supper's Ready." The Eno bio also mentions Banks being jealous or just generally dickish about Eno's involvement with Lamb.

Sounds like if Banks had always had his way, Genesis records would be little more than bland psuedo-baroque keyboard solos.

― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Sunday, January 25, 2015 11:54 AM (3 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Oh god yeah, there were many moments in those docs where Banks would say something like that and I'd just be thinking "my god, this guy must have been such an incredible pain in the arse to work with". He's probably the one member of Genesis I'd hate to spend any amount of time with. I could imagine Collins, Rutherford and Gabriel being great to chat with, Hackett would probably get pissed off that he wasn't getting asked about his solo career. Banks, I imagine would grate on me very quickly.