how to deal with little monsters

Then they've GOT to go, I think. The staff have to tell their parents "your hellions are putting other kids at risk -- you haven't taught them right from wrong well enough, or your home environment is messed up enough that they're acting out in frustration at innocents. Get a grip on the situation or we will."

Um, what? I have always been so thankful that any programs my kids have been in have had absolutely zero tolerance for anything like this. The idea that the teacher doesn't know how to stop it seems totally bizarre. It's not 1972 for fuxake. The bullies would've been expelled at the second incident without question. Otherwise I'd pull my kids outta there fast.

this is a co-op deal, so I'm not sure how expelling someone from the program would work. and I'm not sure what other options we have for daycare, would have to do some serious hunting (it's slim pickings here in SF)

Fuuuuck. Raw nerve time since I have lots of experience with co-ops and actually work in the co-op sector for a co-op company. In my experience if you find a good co-op then it's fantastic but there's a lot of co-ops who find it difficult or impossible to deal with bad behaviour or challenging situations and that can destroy all the positive elements. Mostly due to bad governance and/or lower standards for pretty much everything.

They ought to have a policy and a procedure for dealing with these type of situations. Often it is not being followed because, well, it takes balls to tell a parent that their kid's a monster and that they are not welcome. Co-ops sometimes don't have a hard-nosed board of directors/employee who will take on that responsibility. Plus it means some extra meetings, possible legal fees etc. Sometimes the policy gets ignored. Ask to see it and insist that they follow it to the letter.

I'm up in British Columbia, working for a Canadian federal co-op program so my assumptions and generalizations about co-ops may differ from your experience in SF.

yeah I think we're going to pursue this "we are not getting what we're paying for"/follow the rules angle

for extra lolz, my wife was noting the intransigence/nonchalance of one of the bullies' parents, who happen to be German (I'm Jewish) and I pointed out that if we wanted to get their attention/get under their skin there's a REALLY obvious button to push that would definitely get under their skin. but I dunno how much of a dick I wanna be.

even something as indirect as "as a Jew, I don't like my kid getting beaten up by Germans" would probably set off some alarm bells

Any childcare setting - school, pre-school, whatever - has an absolute duty to deal with stuff like this and the response from your people sounds v. unsatisfactory. Don't know what the regulation of pre-school groups is like in the States but I wd keep on their asses until they properly deal with it, whether that means excluding the bullies or not.

Obv dealing with the parents is a thing too but imo this is totally about a failure of the pre-school.

warning: i'm not a parent

warning: slate content

http://www.slate.com/id/2223976

solutions offered begin on page 2

My advice is to absolutely make them stick to their own rules and take the moral high road as much as possible in terms of getting what you want. Pretend that you are willing to hire a lawyer and if necessary take it all the way to court in order to enforce their own rules, because the co-op means a lot to you etc. That's always a good tactic in co-ops because they are usually terrified of any legal costs.

did I mention that the bullies' parents are both on the co-op board of directors? makes things complicated

maybe we should just leave

You should ask for their conflict of interest policy and their director's job descriptions also. Chances are that they won't be able to participate in any discussion about this at the board meetings.

You cd leave for pragmatic reasons if you can find another pre-school you like but I wouldn't let that stop me from calling these dicks to account.

Board members usually have little idea of their true roles or the rules, policies etc of the organization they are governing. They are only there by default because no-one else would stand for election. Making requests for policies and so on is often a way of introducing the directors to their own rule books.

I should also note that this co-op childcare program is brand new so I'm sure this is uncharted territory for pretty much everyone involved, hard to say how it will shake out. obviously our making a stink is going to shape policy down the line.

like, I think this conflict is going to write the policy (or at least re-write whatever flimsy shit is already on paper)

Theoretically that should not happen. In co-ops there is not any precedent setting. Board's aren't there to rule by their wisdom, just to apply the rules as they stand. If the policy is just some flimsy shit then it will likely be a "zero tolerance"-type statement. That's good for you but the harder part us generally making the board enforce it.

And if they don't enforce it then you can make a case to the general membership to have the board removed.

Blah blah blah. I'm dying to move into the private sector again. This kind of stuff drives me crazy every day.

it could be worth it to take up this conflict with them, because, yeah, it's a problem for the whole enterprise. it should be perfectly fine, encouraged even, to bring a bullying problem to the staff, because that's the only way bullying gets curbed. but in this case you maybe can't, cos the bully's parents are running the show. chances are it's not just a problem for you and your kid, and it won't just go away on its own.

on the other hand, it could be fruitless and these parents/board-members could be defensive and stonewall you.

it's not an enviable situation to be in.

They are probably not running the show though. Chances are that the show runs itself and the board just rubber-stamps some cheques ever month while a manager does whatever they think is best. Most boards are 2 smart people and 5 lame ducks who do not know and never will know what the fuck's going on.

our kid isn't the only one these little bitches have hurt, so I don't think we'll be on our own, but this is definitely going to make some waves if we bring it up at a board meeting, which may yet happen. unless the parents step up to the plate.

xp

Chances are that the show runs itself and the board just rubber-stamps some cheques ever month while a manager does whatever they think is best. Most boards are 2 smart people and 5 lame ducks who do not know and never will know what the fuck's going on.

yeah this is my impresson

So read yr rules. Will put you several moves ahead of most of the board.

yeah thx for the solid advice

will report back

Good luck.

Yeah, good luck -- this is potentially a minefield, but who else would we walk through one for if not our kids?

Sounds like the two bullies are setting each other off, what about getting them separated?

What a horrendous situation! Probably not saying anything new, but if the teacher can't deal with it then it's time to escalate it. Is the next step the board or is there a general manager? It's worth trying to have a united front with the other parents too, so that it can't just be shrugged off.

yeah, this is more a problem with the child-care providers rather than the li'l monsters themselves. Anyone in charge of a number of children should have the skills and experience to be able to discipline that kind of behavior, esp. older/bigger kids picking on the younger ones. If it's the matter of too many kids for the teacher to watch, they need more adults in room.

Your 2-1/2 year old shouldn't have to defend herself but know to tell a teacher when she's being bullied, which itself is hard for some kids. my daughter would clam up around that age when another kid would steal her toy or whatever, so it took some role-playing and practice. now she doesn't take any guff from nobody.

Sounds like the two bullies are setting each other off, what about getting them separated?

yeah this is basically what's happening. on their own, each of them plays fine with my daughter, but the two together gang up on her and get abusive. one of the bullies' parents is cognizant of this and already pulled her kid from one of the days when she would be there with the other bully, so that's a help. the other parent doesn't seem to care, but in an e-mail exchange last night the teacher said she would contact her and make it clear that her bully needs to be separated from the other bully, and that this will require her moving her schedule around so that that the two bullies and my daughter don't share any class-time together. the teacher and the cooperative parent/co-op boardmember also said they would have this type of solution written into the co-ops rules & regulations.

so, problem solved I think. at least for now.

good work -- as parents we can't take any guff off of these toddling swine

it looks like the board is taking this very seriously and the one proactive bully parent initiated proceedings to move schedules around and keep the kids separated as well as get a process on the books, so that's good.

I'm still kinda freaked about what happened to my daughter, now that more details about what basically sounds like a coordinated beating are trickling in

little asshats, who teaches them this kind of behavior...

e-mail from the teacher to the Board:

"Hello Ladies,
Because of the severity of the situation that occurred yesterday along
with the previous situations leading up to it with the same children I
have decided that what is best for everyone involved is to have
GURL 1 and GURL 2 seperated completely for the remainder of the
RUBBERY DUCK Program.
At first I considered only separating them on days V. a was not
present, but I do not believe that will be enough. GURL 2 and GURL 1
play well on their own, just them, but when together and around other
children quite literally situations can and have become dangerous. The
only reason it was Veronica and not another child was because she
desperately wanted to join their group. Other kids stay away when they
can. V. has not been the only child hurt by GURL 1 and GURL 2
together. Even with all four of my eyes and all of my energy I cannot
promise that they will not hurt another child. This time around they
knew to do it where I couldn't see them and the one minute while I was
out comforting another child in the lobby.

I would very much appreciate the Board to add a new policy to the
RUBBERY DUCK program so that in the future when this happens again,
and it will, we are more prepared.
On a side note - I was moved to tears yesterday while holding V.
because seeing her cry, feeling her shaking, listening to her recount
the events was just too much to bear. This will stay with her for a
long time. I have great guilt for being in the lobby and wish I had
just come back ten seconds sooner. Drop-off time can be intense
understandably, but I still wish I could have stopped what happened.
But again, I can't promise that safety at this point so the girls
being moved is necessary as they know now to do these things when I am
not present.
I know M$ and S$ mentioned taking the girls out of the program
completely and I DO NOT feel that is necessary. They just can't be
together is all.
Thank you, Let me know your thoughts
N$"

I dunno about the "this will stay with her for a long time" part... I hope not

Wow.

(Might want to google-proof that.)

Also.. "RUBBERY DUCK"??????

Veronica has not been the only child hurt by @nya and S0lve1g
together. Even with all four of my eyes and all of my energy I cannot
promise that they will not hurt another child. This time around they
knew to do it where I couldn't see them and the one minute while I was
out comforting another child in the lobby.

DAYUMMMM. Naming and shaming...I like it!
Also, congrats to the teacher for taking this 100% seriously.

let me know if you want the memo googleproofed

eh I'm not worried about it, this is a pretty small co-op/program

and yeah I think the teacher does take this 100% seriously and my wife and I (and Veronica) all really like her - I think where things broke down is that the other parents involved, both the ones who were supposed to be on-hand to assist the teacher and the parents of the bullies, kinda dropped the ball re: taking this seriously. Now, EVERYBODY is taking it very seriously. there were lots of phonecalls/e-mails last night

I think the saddest part of this is that GURL 1 and/or GURL 2 are likely to get a swat, not because they've done something wrong, but because they've embarrassed their mothers.

MOD NOTE: hey, i went through and googleproofed it before getting the 'don't need' from shakey mo. i can roll back, but i was erring on the side of caution

at this point -- with all the repeating of the kids' names -- it is kind of a moot point, but i was thinking shakey mo might want to avoid having the kids/parents google the co-op and finding a thread where two children are called 'little monsters'.

haha hmm yeah that's a fair point, google-proof away

just to keep everybody updated (I know yr all on the edge of yr seats), this has basically turned into a huge clusterfuck now - not that it's all bad, but now the board is definitely in damage control mode and are going WAY overboard to do everything they can think of to cover their asses, revise their policies, make sure they don't get sued, etc. Basically my wife is fielding multiple calls/e-mails a day about this, there's an "emergency town hall" meeting scheduled for tonight, a therapist is being brought in, etc.

It's all kind of annoying at this point - I mean they've already agreed to an immediate solution that we found acceptable (separating all the respective parties' schedules) and everyone's apologized/talked about it so my wife and I are satisfied with the resolution. V seems to be doing fine and we will work with her to see that she continues to develop normal socialization skills and everything (it's not like she was kidnapped and molested, I kinda rolled me eyes at the suggestion that therapy was necessary but whatever). But now all these busy-body moms are in overdrive and it's just yak yak yak pester pester pester you don't need to apologize to me for the millionth time just get yr kid under control, okay? It's driving my wife crazy. (V appears to be totally oblivious, which is as it should be, she's basically back to her normal cheerful self)

At this point all you can really do is enjoy the feeling of satisfaction that comes from making a bunch of people lose their shit.

lol

a lot of crying last night, apparently. lots of the Board being told by the therapist that there are huge, glaring holes in their organization - particularly in regards to disciplinary policies - that need to be dealt with. bullying needs to have consequences, for example - neither bully was subjected to any discipline as a result of their behavior, and obviously that's wrong (that there are hippy-dippy parents in this community who would argue otherwise, who would argue that something as simple as a "time out" is too harsh just make me think WTF is wrong with you, I shouldn't be placing my kid in yr care)

fwiw I feel pretty good about how V has handled this and think she's going to be okay, but at the same time my wife and I now feel some overwhelming guilt about our culpability in placing her in an unsafe environment, that we should've pressed this issue harder/earlier, should've thought more about the drawbacks of co-ops, etc. Live and learn, I guess.

In some ways I feel worse for the parents of the bullies, both of whom clearly have way larger issues with themselves, their kids and their marriages that my wife and I do not. the guilt and the pressure to deal with this must be insane... otoh if you can't get yr shit together, stay away from my kid, basically. It does make me feel lucky to have such a generally well-adjusted kid and a happy, functional relationship with my wife

yeah my eyes kinda popped out of my head when I heard that

"but in the long term we're looking around for somewhere else to put her"

Have you looked into L4ur3l Hill, Shakey? That's where my brother and I went to pre-school and it was a really good experience.

we haven't taken a serious look anywhere yet, just compiling a list - need to get on this tho

so the bullies are gone - new school year, my daughter is now one of the oldest in the program (keeping her here while we look around for a real pre-school, so far fingers crossed for Glenridge which seems like our first choice)

altho now she has a classmate who humps everything... which is more comical than anything but it's just like WTF this kid is literally humping something every couple of minutes. the floor, the furniture, toys, other children (latter doesn't always go over so well). Future porn star?

Oh man, long story but I ended up briefly reunited with a long lost sister about 12 years ago and during the reunion I met my niece who was about 4 and who constantly humped everything, just frottering away while we're having this estranged family reunion, and it made an already awkward situation almost unbearable. I would say it is just a normal thing some kids do, but I there was nothing normal about any of that.

I think this kid is around 2 yo

wow, it's tough when kids that young are doing it. the best thing to say is "that's something you do when you're by yourself, like going potty" but a kid that young prolly doesn't have the greatest grip on public vs private behavior. he might still be going in his pants.

^ and obv the parents should be the one delivering the privacy message

shakey don't be all like 'get a room you freak!'

I really hesitate to mention it, but isn't that sort of hypersexual behavior in toddlers a warning sign of sexual abuse?

I have heard that and I was concerned it might be the case w/ my niece (for other reasons, too, but like I said: long story). But it could also just be a kid who hasn't gotten the hang of socially acceptable behavior or just has a discomfiting self-soothing method.

shakey don't be all like 'get a room you freak!'

lol I've only seen this kid in action once, I'm not working at the co-op so no worries

But it could also just be a kid who hasn't gotten the hang of socially acceptable behavior or just has a discomfiting self-soothing method.

I think this is more what's going on. Both of his parents appear flummoxed/surprised by the behavior and like I said he is only 2yo, abuse would be a pretty extreme scenario/explanation...? It seems more likely that he just has no boundaries and discovered this thing that feels awesome and hasn't gotten a handle on it yet. but hey, that's what socialization is all about, right?

in the meantime it is kind of hilarious

also yeah pretty sure this kid's still in diapers

Alright folks. So, as noted on the redneck thread, the extremely troubled kid-next-door (I'll call him Chase) comes over to my house every day seeking to escape from whatever hell is going on over there. He and my son play together. It's about a 50% mix of them playing together nicely, as little kids do, and 50% of Chase acting up. The acting up is pretty extreme.

When he's in a bad mood, Chase often complains that he is "so bored" and that we are "so boring" and that whatever it is that we happen to say we like doing "sucks." My wife and I both believe that he is pretty jealous of our life. When he comes over to our house, there are toys to play with and attentive parents. From what we've learned about his house, his older brother sits around playing Halo or watching horror movies. The place is a complete dump (as witnessed from the outside - god knows what it's like on the inside). He wore the same shoes from March through August and frequently wore the same socks for days on end. His dad has been arrested on drug-related charges in the past and the word around the neighborhood is that he's into PCP. I don't credit rumor mills for much, but maybe they know something.

We don't see his dad much, but one of the few times we've seen him and his son together, his son had hurt himself playing in our yard. Chase had whacked his head on the gate to our backyard and was actually bleeding from the head. His father hollered at him for running and flicked him in the head - hard.

So Chase comes over, sometimes plays superheroes with my son, sometimes cusses us all out and vows that he'll never come over here again, only to return the next day when school lets out. My wife and I are completely sick of it. We feel that he is a bad influence on our son and I can tell that keeping him in the environment is having an impact on my son, who is acting up. Just a little bit more than usual, but it's pretty easy for me to see where it's coming from. I want my son to play with someone else.

On the other hand, we feel really bad for this child. He's a fucking child for god's sake. A little kid who comes from a shitty world and probably lives a shittier life than we know. At the beginning of the summer, my wife and I thought we might be able to make a difference in this kids life by modeling constructive behavior for him. It hasn't been working and it's taking a lot out of us.

Any thoughts, ilxors?

Like, talking to the dad about the kids behavior is out of the question. He'll probably just holler at him or beat him for it or something. Do you know how to work with extremely troubled youth? Are there good agencies or nonprofits out there I could contact about this kid? I don't even know what I'm looking for, really.

Umm... can I be blunt and suggest you call child protective services? If you were a teacher or doctor this would be a Mandatory Reporting issue –- i suggest you protect yourself, your son, and "Chase" by leaving the decision to professionals.

Seriously... call your state's agency and tell them exactly what you told us here: you are (almost) legally obligated to do so.

I'd tell him he's not allowed to come over anymore until he can keep a civil tongue in his head. You can raise your own kid, but you can't raise your neighbors' kids.

I also think you should have a man-to-man talk with your son, walking a fine line between a peers and father-son. "I'm worried about that kid, but more than that, I'm worried about the acting out he's teaching you. It's not okay. Just because we're not disciplining Chase, it's still not okay, because it's not our job to discipline Chase. But it is our job to discipline you, and if you do stuff because you see him doing it and getting away with it, you're going to find out who's in charge. I love you and I don't want you to turn into the kind of kid who insults and cusses out adults. Now let's watch baseball."

WmC, we have been upfront across the board with our kid about what's expected from him, etc. etc. The problem with the part of can't raise your neighbors' kids is that my wife was in part raised by her neighbors while her parents were dealing with serious drug-and-alcohol problems, so she feels serious empathy with this kid's plight.

Remy, I'll look into that. I had been thinking about it, but to me the idea of it seems like it's completely overblown or they wouldn't be able to do anything anyway.

risk to your own kid vs. benefit to the neighbor kid -- your call, obv.

Oh yeah, no doubt. It's just that there are conflicted emotions. Plus my kid likes to play with him when he's not being an absolute terror.

so many xps

i had a big old post written out but remy and wmc kinda covered it. i also lost it when i hit reload, so

the only thing i would add is: since you are not a mandatory reporter (by law), at least educate yrself on signs/symptoms of child abuse, be it psychological physical etc. most ppl are reluctant (for various good and bad reasons) to blow the whistle on suspected child abuse. talking about why that's the case would be a whole other thread, probably. but: the more you know about what constitutes Real Deal abuse* will likely be empowering if/when you need to act to save this kid from whatever he's dealing with at home.

* this is an ugly binary, and ignores the subtle horrors of trauma, but i'm deploying a "know it when you see it" construction because it's expedient

word, gbx. I will take that advice. Thank you.

also, your wife's take on the issue is important, esp w/r/t a community's reluctance to investigate/report/act against domestic violence. neighbors/relatives/whoever can be valuable and necessary caregivers/raisers of children, but nowadays i feel like it gets weird, legally, and quickly. this isn't growing pains, you know, leo isn't moving in. at a societal level, a certain distance is maintained and agencies like CPS bridge the gap. just knowing where/when that gap should be recognized is the tricky part for parents, is the thing. i'm sure you will figure it out, tho

lol, this kid will never in his life be mistaken for leonardo dicaprio. hoooooooly shit.

have you laid down house rules for this neighbour-kid? like wmc says, maybe tell him 'this is how we do it here, you're a cool kid and we like having you around but you have to choose between following our rules or staying at home'.

how old's this kid?

The kid knows how we do things around here. And about 50% of the time, he behaves. If he misbehaves, we send him home, but we usually try to talk things out first. Sometimes he'll open up a little and it turns out that he got in trouble at school. He has framed it as "other kids were picking on me, so I hit them" which is a believable enough story, but based on how I've seen him act with my kid, Chase is usually the instigator.

k3vin k: both kids are six.

I'm totally going to follow through on gbx's advice and educate myself more about the signs of abuse to see if I should call CPS.

Thanks dudes.

kkvgz update?

UGH, so since then, things got pretty hectic around my house. As I've noted elsewhere, our baby daughter was born Oct. 9 and she had to go back to the hospital a couple of times due to illness. So while she and mommy were in the hospital, I didn't let the kid come over because I mean, hell, my son and I were both extremely stressed out and I just couldn't deal.

Early last week, now that everything has settled down a little better in our family life, we noticed that not only was the neighbor kid not coming around, he wasn't out playing in the street at all, which was his usual habitat. So we're a little worried about him, but we think that custody may have somehow switched to his mother. She has her problems, but we like her better and so does the kid. It's sort of on my wife to check around with the neighbors to see if they've heard anything*, but she's been busy with the baby. One of the neighbors had mentioned that they were going to call social services, so maybe that's it. We really need to follow up with some people, is what it boils down to.

*neither of us feel comfortable approaching the father's house.

The kid had broken his arm very badly in a fight with another kid on Halloween. He had been staying with his mother while he was out of school. He came over for a few hours yesterday and played with my kid. Both of them played together pretty well. Just gonna have to see how things go and be observant.

Just by way of bringing this chapter of the story to a close. xposted from the prison thread.

Suggest Ban Permalink

OK, should xpost this to the hillbilly thread - there are cops at my neighbor's house right now! I might know someone in prison before too long! : )

― rake rock reggae (kkvgz), Monday, December 20, 2010 3:15 PM (2 days ago) Bookmark

The cops were there because he died. I don't have any other details, except that his son who lived with him in those crummy conditions gets to go live with his mom now, which he desperately wanted.

― rake rock reggae (kkvgz), Wednesday, December 22, 2010 6:04 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

:-/

yeah mega-bummer

aaaaaand to close out the story that started this thread: the teacher who presided over my child's beating had her last day today. she is 4 mos pregnant and is leaving to take time off and pursue her master's/get properly accredited and the whole process of her leaving has made it ABUNDANTLY clear what an incompetent prima donna she is (complaining that the term "discipline" should have no place in the co-op's rules and regulations, demanding that she be able to tell parents, individually and personally, when she was leaving rather than let the board handle it, e-mailing parents about how unlikely it is that the co-cop will be able to find a replacement with her "experience" etc.) just ridiculous behavior, the woman does not know how to leave a job. my wife really had to bite her tongue through the whole process.

Wow.

haha maybe not the first ILP thread you should have clicked on...

Hah well I'd followed this earlier. I will say one of the things I am not looking forward to is dealing with a wider assortment of mentally ill people in San Francisco.

jesus christ can you imagine what her kid is gonna be like?!

is it just me who was all 'yay!' when they read kkvgz's asshole neighbor died???

You would be joining my wife. : ) I was certainly repulsed by and lived in fear of the guy. We had an alarm installed after one incident with him. We seriously considered buying a gun for home-defense.

But like in many, if not most, abusive relationships, he wasn't 100% always an asshole to his kid. So the memories of him hollering at the boy and the squalid and dangerous conditions the poor kid had to live in are offset a little by memories of the man fixing up the old dune buggy he kept in his yard and taking the little boy out for ice-cream this summer. It's a balance. I imagine the kid's memories of his dad will be bittersweet and Christmas might be a more difficult time of year to deal with now.

It's all I can do to hope that the boy's life gets better from here. I don't know how much better it will get, but I'm pretty sure it will.

(all of which as a way of saying that I'm not exactly all "yay", but more just like cautiously optimistic)

why wasnt he living with his mom in the first place?