what are barack obama's flaws?

Out of curiosity, who out of the field of candidates in 2008 would have been a credible leftist leader?

greenwald links to ppl like benen, yglesias, klein, etc. telling proggies that Obama's doing his best for them, which he then feels the need to refute, understandably. it's not like iatee, say, doesn't make the argument that he's hamstrung by congress etc. xpost

Those people are, tho, for the most part centrists themselves, especially Klein. Or people like Yglesias are straddling the line between centrist + more leftist.

Out of curiosity, who out of the field of candidates in 2008 would have been a credible leftist leader?

Kucinich

idk, maybe it's just that I know more conservative people that I draw the lines further down than someone like Glenn Greenwald (who doesn't even live in the United States anymore afaik?) who maybe forgets what it's like to be the most leftist person you know. People are shocked when I tell them I'm more left-wing than Obama or the Democrat party. That's still a very radical position in this country.

Btw, I live in NYC, which is itself way more to the left than the rest of the country, and I'm still among the most left-wing people I know.

"Kucinich"

Is there Kucinich fanfiction out there that can point to what our alt-history would be like if he won?

I used to get into Obama/Kucinich arguments with the two guys who did the radio show after mine. Obama (according to them) was the crass politician, a total fraud, while Kucinich was the high-minded idealist, and if I didn't believe it, all I had to do was check his record going back to his days in Cincinnati. The two guys left the station sometime in 2009, so I never got to ask them about Kucinich's role in passing health care, which proved that he was either a) such an idealist that he realized he had to bend a little for the good of the country, or b) his vote could be had for a ride on Air Force One.

xp ask question -> get answer -> insult the person who answered

great look there

all I had to do was check his record going back to his days in Cincinnati

Kucinich = Cleveland

"ask question -> get answer -> insult the person who answered"
I dunno how you parse Kucinich fanfiction requests as an insult, but I was serious!
I hadn't found about this until now but the mafia hit on Kucinich story is pretty amazing.

the mafia hit story is not fanfiction, BTW
http://freetimes.com/stories/15/9/the-mafia-plot-to-kill-dennis-kucinich

at least I think it's not.

thumbnail sketch on Kucinich record in cleveland

Dennis refuses to sell municipal electric company to the banks. banks "foreclose" on cleveland. cleveland goes into default. kucinich is recalled and (now Senator) Voinovich is elected mayor

thumbnail sketch on Obama record in Washington

Barack refuses to push for tighter regulation of industry. oil well blows up in gulf. ocean goes into default. Obama loses bid for reelection and Palin is elected president

shoot, that was easy!

Gosh darn it.

<3 Mordy

OT, but there's an old Jewish joke that goes: A Jewish man is riding the train in 1935 when he notices a friend of his reading Der Strumer. He's horrified. "Why are you reading that Nazi filth?" he asks. His friend answers, "When I read the Jewish papers I hear about anti-Semitic legislation, pogroms, assimilation in America. I get more and more depressed. But when I read Der Strumer I get happier and happier. We control all the banks, we own all the governments."

Which is to say, if you really wanna feel optimistic about Obama, read FreeRepublic.

The personification of "Ocean goes into default" reminds me of Seinfeld's "Hey, George--the ocean called to say they're running out of shrimp."

Which is to say, if you really wanna feel optimistic about Obama, read FreeRepublic Der Strumer

Hey guys, I was reading and drinking beer. What'd Obama do in the last hour?

Woah what a coincidence. He read a book and drank a beer!

Fucking elitist I am.

Glenn Greenwald would be a million times less shrill if he stopped trying to prove that Obama is a centrist and just assumed everyone understood that and attacked his positions. This whole discourse of, "I have proof he's really a centrist" is completely insane and I really don't see the value in it. Who are you trying to convince? The Republicans?

― Mordy, Monday, June 21, 2010 8:01 PM (47 minutes ago)

see man here's the thing - political discussion isn't indie rock criticism. it seems pretty clear your politics differ substantively from greenwald's on certain issues - imo more arguing with actual conclusions and positions and less holding up rhetoric (which even stans find tiring at times) as this pesky impediment as if we're all on the same side on all the issues. none of us is, that's cool imo!

That's legit. It only really becomes a problem when the argument is fully excised and there's only the rhetoric; see Morbz on any of these threads.

greenwald has lost it

he's a must read for keeping track of the issues he cares about but as a political analyst or even a polemicist he's basically worthless at this point

Kucinich's role in passing health care

tbh i probably would have done something similar to kucinich - probably would have held out as long as i could, made some noise, and when it inevitably came down to this or nothing would have "held my nose and voted for it", as i think chomsky said

The divide on this board, as I see it, is between people who want to give Obama a break for the good things he's done, yet will ask the rest of us to remember that presidents aren't omnipotent -- even as his administration targets American citizens and imprisons people in legal limbo without charging them -- and subject to the whims of an unruly Congress; and guys like me who don't expect miracles but who do expect presidents to put their prestige and considerable super-cool executive branch powers in something besides flexing the muscles of his war powers, at least some of the time.

Rambling, but hope it makes sense.

Morbz is always setting it up like the argument is whether Obama is perfect or not

Motherfuck motherfuck NO. The argument is that Obama is about 2% better than Bush.

I'm still among the most left-wing people I know.

Oh, the people you know...

(btw even my Obama-votin', way-richer-than-me,putting-up-the-flag-on-holidays sister knows that he's too right to be a centrist.)

"The argument is that Obama is about 2% better than Bush."
I'd rate Bush Sr. about 50% better than Bush. (I'd rather have had three more terms of Bush Sr. than the two of Bush Jr.) On that scale, where would Obama land?

i didn't feel like digging up the other thread but it was hilarious today when greenwald tweeted "it's telling that julian assange feels comfortable moving about the western world, but not the US" to which the proper response would be "yes, because he's paranoid and likely delusional"

I've already said Bush I is my least loathed president of the last 40 years. I don't do scores on these criminals, tho. (Yes, 2% was just made up) xp

Why do you guys read political columnists? Almost as bad as indie-rock criticism, or worse yet thinkpieces about pop.

we read your posts

and btw you post links to dennis perrin columns wtf are you talking about

I'd rate Bush Sr. about 50% better than Bush. (I'd rather have had three more terms of Bush Sr. than the two of Bush Jr.) On that scale, where would Obama land?

Bush Sr was a prime asshole no doubt but I don't remember him using his Iraq war as cover for ordering the assassination of American citizens - not that I'd be surprised if it turned out that he had, but the brazenness of the recent business puts Obama in some shitty historical company

darnyou, where've you been all day?

Rambling, but hope it makes sense.

Very well stated, actually. But I remain a generally satisfied supporter. As I pointed out elsewhere, he's 35% of the way into his first term; in today's insanely amped-up media landscape, it just seems like he's been president for 10 or 12 years. If he's reelected, he's got 79 months left to do some of the things you want him to do. (I realize that political time is different than normal time, and that that first 35% is disproportionally important.) And, an ever-dwindling demographic, I'm still someone who enjoys listening to him.

you post links to dennis perrin columns wtf are you talking about

He's no columnist, and I can't be pullin out musty LL Cool J quotes all day

i see no reason why not

If he's reelected, he's got 79 months left

I see that as far as rank & file Dem fantasies go, Clinton is till the relevant comparison.

Two-term prezzes are dead men walking by the sixth year.

darnyou, where've you been all day?

I was on this thread a lot I think!

I acknowledged that political time isn't normal time in the post. But while major legislation might be out of the question in years 7 and 8, I don't think you can't do anything. I'd have to check--Eisenhower's and Reagan's and Clinton's last two years weren't complete blanks, were they? And surely the make-up of Congress matters some.

Reagan's second term >>>>>>>> his first, but he was the greatest Western leader since Charlemagne.

u crazee

oh I forgot, you think Timberlake is a great pop star.

wait'll you see HIS presidency

haha

he'll rename DC Omletteville.

Reagan deserves credit for ignoring just about every one of his advisers and the entire conservative establishment and negotiating with Gorby.

The least harmful of the Cold War presidents -- the one president who understood the consequences of war after leading the biggest fighting force in modern history -- was Eisenhower.

greenwald has lost it

he's a must read for keeping track of the issues he cares about but as a political analyst or even a polemicist he's basically worthless at this point

― kenny logins (goole), Monday, June 21, 2010 9:49 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i think the most recent several-thousand-word screed about jon chait and jonathan bernstein (not guys who i have any great love for, but at least chait is funny sometimes) is the one that will get me to unsubscribe from my rss reader