yeah I guess the reaction of the other guys isn't like "oh shit... this dude might be a woman!!"
― The Black Keys - white boys can still throw down (crüt), Monday, 21 June 2010 23:11 (thirteen years ago) link
Is it an overreaction to think shit like this feeds shit like this?
This quote horribly lol:
"That was the pathetic reason as to why this terrible event happened - because he wanted to show he wasn't a pussy"David Jeremy QC, prosecuting
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/10372678.stm
― admrl, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 16:24 (thirteen years ago) link
i guess it 'feeds into it' but you might as well posit other pop-cultural causes while yer at it. video games. rap music. action movies.
― ultra nate dogg (history mayne), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 16:27 (thirteen years ago) link
red bull imo
― Remember when Mr Banhart was a replicant? (darraghmac), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 16:28 (thirteen years ago) link
Can I -- do I even have to say that the word "mancave" makes every skin cell I have cringe in repulsion? There are whole shows dedicated to...them. I'm not saying it again. It's a terrible word. Also, really, just crawl back into a vagina and find a womb if you really need it to be warm and dark and infantilizing that badly.
This is OTMFM. My wife and I just bought a house, and there are several more rooms than we previously had in the place we were renting. I cannot tell you how many times people were like "Oooh. Now you can have a MAN CAVE."
Fuck that. If I want to watch a football game or play video games or watch a war movie, I'll do it. If my wife is currently utilizing the television, I'll either go somewhere I can watch the game or wait until she isn't. I don't need some sanctum infantatum to go do my "manly" things. At least back in the day the den was a place of work or quiet contemplation or reading or some such shit. Its replacement - the man cave - is a place of 50" plasma televisions, team logo stickers, and keggerators. Shit, dude. Leave that at a bar.
Its just so lame. I get that some dudes need to have a place where they can get away from the world and just kick it, watch a game, sit in recliners, drink beer, or whatever.
BUT WOMEN DON'T WANT THAT, TOO? FUCK!
Caveat: I do have an "office" because I work a fair bit at home, and am distracted relatively easily. This will not become a man cave, however.
― Let Amare go ham like he was all you can eating it (B.L.A.M.), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 16:39 (thirteen years ago) link
How about an interact-with-your-family-like-they're-real-people cave?
― kkvgz, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 16:49 (thirteen years ago) link
(there are no caves or private areas, except the bathroom and my kid's bedroom)
― kkvgz, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 16:50 (thirteen years ago) link
At least back in the day the den was a place of work or quiet contemplation or reading or some such shit. Its replacement - the man cave - is a place of 50" plasma televisions, team logo stickers, and keggerators.
Haha. I went off the handle a little bit yest but I should maybe be more thoughtful and say, yeah, agreed w BLAM on this point: of course EVERYONE would like space for themselves, comfort, etc, but I have to main objections to the mancave:
1. It pre-assumes that the rest of the house is NOT his, meaning it must belong to his wife and he's somehow less welcome or less "in control" there, which is obvious gendered bullshit and demeaning to all parties.
2. Men are being sold the lowest common denominator of hopes and dreams for this little bit of space that is "theirs". And they're supposed to be MOST at home and most their "real" authentic selves there, somehow? Except the whole sports and beer and bravado and sloppiness thing, while I myself am a big supporter of all these in the right context, these are not qualities that exercise the "best self" even though they have their place in life. This is not what we need more of in the home, or in our heads really.
― the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 16:59 (thirteen years ago) link
*TWO main objections. Fingers too fast there.
― the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 17:00 (thirteen years ago) link
Nah. Fuck them.
― Let Amare go ham like he was all you can eating it (B.L.A.M.), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 17:00 (thirteen years ago) link
how many people actually have these man caves? outside of beer commercials and sitcoms and mtv cribz.
― iatee, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 17:02 (thirteen years ago) link
Also related to expounding on point #2: I loathe the fact that advertisers have successfully made this kind of personal space in the home be about CONSUMPTION more than contemplation, or anything else the space could be used for. Maybe that's snobbish/elitist of me.
iatee, I have no idea, but people on home shows who're shopping for a new place or w/e seem to talk about them A LOT.
― the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 17:04 (thirteen years ago) link
I agree that it's a concept of sorts and surely does exist in reality for some people - but to say that it's replaced the den? I dunno, I'd bet there are 5x as many 'dens' as 'man caves' in america...bet based entirely off personal experience.
― iatee, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 17:08 (thirteen years ago) link
New idea: Is the "man cave" a replacement idea for the garage or workshop, for "modern" men who don't have garages or wood-working areas or tools and hobbies of that particular "manly" sort? Like, a lot of people can come to the rescue with a cordless drill or some basic plumbing stuff like getting things out of the drain trap etc, in an emergency, but most of us "urban"(?) younger people don't spend the number of hours working on machinery or carpentry projects, etc, that I remember people doing when I was little. Or yardwork, because we don't have yards per se or we hire landscapers or something.
― the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 17:08 (thirteen years ago) link
But, on the other hand, does this not take at least part of the recreation and socializing out of bars and bring it into the home? Is that bad?
― Let Amare go ham like he was all you can eating it (B.L.A.M.), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 17:10 (thirteen years ago) link
I loathe the fact that advertisers have successfully made this kind of personal space in the home be about CONSUMPTION more than contemplation, or anything else the space could be used for. Maybe that's snobbish/elitist of me.
Holy shit, me too. At some point, the eating/drinking/buying must stop, right? READ A BOOK!
― Let Amare go ham like he was all you can eating it (B.L.A.M.), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 17:16 (thirteen years ago) link
we call the room in the cellar with the couch, tv, and dvd player the "man cave" but we're both men and it really is like a cave so
― I am an old guy, and I prefer the late 90s. (Matt P), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 17:35 (thirteen years ago) link
oops i meant "man den"
― I am an old guy, and I prefer the late 90s. (Matt P), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 17:36 (thirteen years ago) link
usually said with a terrible british accent? ymmv
Was the den just the middle-class-ification of the "library"? Which was also a men's sanctum in houses that could afford one, iirc.
― the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 17:41 (thirteen years ago) link
this sounds right tbh.
I mean, when I think of the concept, it's less to do with masculinity and more with privacy (treehouse!). "hobby cave"
― flapjackin (gbx), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 17:44 (thirteen years ago) link
like when some lady tames this ~stallion~, I imagine I'll want some sort of space to do nerdy projecting ( bikes or w/e) by myself. just cuz I like to do that stuff alone, not because Ill expect my wife to be baking pies all the time
tho that would be dope, I love pie
― flapjackin (gbx), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 17:47 (thirteen years ago) link
yeah I mean people like having their own private space (not just men...) - I do think it comes down to the fact that most peoples' hobbies = watching tv
― iatee, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 17:48 (thirteen years ago) link
man cave pioneer:
http://a0.vox.com/6a00c225240649549d00d4141e3c30685e-500pi
― iatee, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 17:49 (thirteen years ago) link
yeah but calling it a "man cave" just conjures up bad smells imo.
what about "penis room"?or "room for penises"
― I am an old guy, and I prefer the late 90s. (Matt P), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 17:54 (thirteen years ago) link
How about "room for athletic assholes"?
― kkvgz, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 17:55 (thirteen years ago) link
How about a room for shutin gamers?
― flapjackin (gbx), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 17:57 (thirteen years ago) link
That doesn't really fit in with the kind of party me and Matt P are having, sorry.
― kkvgz, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 17:58 (thirteen years ago) link
Frankly if there were a room that my family members/partner were reluctant to enter and where I was allowed to spend hours of recreation time basically unaccounted for except for occasional hobbyist projects that resulted, I'd spend every waking and non-working moment there.
Which would basically defeat the purpose of having a family/partner but you know, what can you do.
― the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 17:59 (thirteen years ago) link
room with stuff in it for me to do
― I am an old guy, and I prefer the late 90s. (Matt P), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 17:59 (thirteen years ago) link
And I would really like it to be as boring as possible to everyone but me.
― the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 18:00 (thirteen years ago) link
^^ This. Laurel, I feel like we agree on this topic whole-heartedly.
― Let Amare go ham like he was all you can eating it (B.L.A.M.), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 18:02 (thirteen years ago) link
you can do it even if you have a partner, don't need to designate a room either
― I am an old guy, and I prefer the late 90s. (Matt P), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 18:07 (thirteen years ago) link
I need a bigger apartment. With a den.
― the soul of the avocado escapes as soon as you open it (Laurel), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 18:07 (thirteen years ago) link
:(
― I am an old guy, and I prefer the late 90s. (Matt P), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 18:09 (thirteen years ago) link
In Britain, this space is called 'the shed' and it's a place for men who like kamikaze home repair to isolate themselves from their houses. It is accepted by the type of man who celebrates Top Gear viewing as a 'blokey' pursuit.
Further to what Plaxico was saying about the doc above, this is just another take on projecting 'realness' or basically it's Paris is Burning in a lumberjack shirt. I also give a lot of traction to the idea that the gay fashion designer's first-collection 'muse' for menswear is the guy they were bullied by, or the guy they fancied at a time when they had less acceptance/control over how they, themselves, were seen.
― WHEN CROWS GO BAD (suzy), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 18:10 (thirteen years ago) link
found the trailer for that doc. btw. iirc the guy who says the line i was talking about is pretty much the only interesting guy in it, and not just bc of his awesome moustache.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oTB_NkZjLM
I'm not sure how comfortable I am w/ describing gay displays of masculinity in a kind of PIB realness context either bc it kind of implicitly suggests that straight displays of "masculinity" are in some way more real or authentic than gay.
― plax (ico), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 18:24 (thirteen years ago) link
Your comfort is not the issue, as the voguers were the ones who invented 'realness' categories and predicated it on the whole phenomenon of 'passing', but I would argue that all 'masculine' displays have that aspect.
― WHEN CROWS GO BAD (suzy), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 18:35 (thirteen years ago) link
you are being p. hasty w/ prescribing an element of a very specific subultural phenomenon existing in a very specific context as somehow paradigmatic of the vastly larger cultural spectrum of male gender performativity. But beyond that,I mean, a large part of the performance of "realness" in PIB is explained by the ballers as an expression of their desire to overcome marginality, that line about the appearance of success being an equivalent for success itself (framed against the backdrop of racism, homo/transphobia and the aspirational climate of american popular culture in the 70s, 80s in partic.)
― plax (ico), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 18:54 (thirteen years ago) link
PIB?
― I am an old guy, and I prefer the late 90s. (Matt P), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 18:55 (thirteen years ago) link
paris is burning
― plax (ico), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 19:00 (thirteen years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydA7-qCv570
dorian corey is such a hero
― plax (ico), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 19:01 (thirteen years ago) link
Well yeah, me too - and maybe this is a bit off-topic - but one thing I've been noticing among my friends who are also urbanites, is a desire to return to the carpentry/construction/productive projects that we associate from the middle America of our youth. It's like everyone I know who lives somewhere with anything resembling a backyard wants to have a garden and grow produce and raise chickens.
― i don't know whether it's really popular in Canada as well (sarahel), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 19:20 (thirteen years ago) link
that looks fantastic. thread has me thinking about all sorts of things but i don't how how to put it into a coherent statement. like, this stuff really affects me sometimes. x-post
― I am an old guy, and I prefer the late 90s. (Matt P), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 19:21 (thirteen years ago) link
it is fucking fantastic. would totally recommend.
― plax (ico), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 19:22 (thirteen years ago) link
PIB is life-changingly good!
― rim this, fuck that (Eric H.), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 19:26 (thirteen years ago) link
maybe it's a desire to have a direct hand in SOMETHING that's a part of your life. that's what you tell yourself before you start. then you start and it just plain sucks, but you keep going cuz you started it. we just planted a garden, cut down a bunch of weed trees, grew a lawn and landscaped some flower beds. and it looks nice! it's a great thing to do but it doesn't really mean anything beyond itself imo x-post
― I am an old guy, and I prefer the late 90s. (Matt P), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 19:29 (thirteen years ago) link
yeah, Matt, I kinda feel like it's a reaction to the alienation of consumerism and work that involves sitting in front of a computer all day. It's like they want to produce something in a way that requires physical labor.
― i don't know whether it's really popular in Canada as well (sarahel), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 19:41 (thirteen years ago) link
Manliest Cities in America
― Let Amare go ham like he was all you can eating it (B.L.A.M.), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 19:54 (thirteen years ago) link
After all, COMBOS® has been the 'Official Cheese-Filled Snack of NASCAR' since 2002."
― i don't know whether it's really popular in Canada as well (sarahel), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 19:56 (thirteen years ago) link