I was just using them as egs of titles who might be expected to recoil from Coco Rosie. I went on Metacritic looking for egs of the "vitriol" Owen P is talking about and came up empty.
― Haunted Clocks For Sale (Dorianlynskey), Monday, 21 June 2010 18:32 (thirteen years ago) link
I would have thought Jamie Stewart was too old and experienced to make such juvenile comments (and I don't even think that really is him blowing that horse in that pic).
― Becky Facelift, Monday, 21 June 2010 18:45 (thirteen years ago) link
Though I don't know why I would think old & experienced necessarily = thoughtful & smart
― Becky Facelift, Monday, 21 June 2010 18:46 (thirteen years ago) link
My dislike of the CocoRosie sisters and their albums and their whole thing has nothing to do with me being male and hetero. It's all about my finely tuned bullshit detector, and those girls fucking stink like bullshit.
― Johnny Fever, Monday, 21 June 2010 18:57 (thirteen years ago) link
But, you see, they have put themselves in a vulnerable position by stinking like bullshit.
― Haunted Clocks For Sale (Dorianlynskey), Monday, 21 June 2010 19:03 (thirteen years ago) link
This.
And that since their debut, little of their music has struck me as particularly... good.
― sean gramophone, Monday, 21 June 2010 19:03 (thirteen years ago) link
Like, I get that people who like Grey Oceans are bummed that not everyone agrees. But to write essays explaining how it's because we're sexist buffoons is pretty fucking enraging. I wish these contributors did a better job describing the pleasures they find in the music. (Some do try to do this, but largely it isn't precise enough.)
Given that Cocorosie are a band that, to outside eyes, stink of scenesterism, the NY-loft-microcosm vibe of many of those Stereogum contributors also doesn't help. I'm surprised Sean Lennon didn't chime in.
― sean gramophone, Monday, 21 June 2010 19:10 (thirteen years ago) link
Meanwhile, here are two Cocorosie songs I like a lot:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A57DFvq8zcE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRQZMreM5Qs
― sean gramophone, Monday, 21 June 2010 19:12 (thirteen years ago) link
Nobody is accusing anybody of being misogynist
― The Bartered Bride (Ówen P.), Monday, 21 June 2010 19:26 (thirteen years ago) link
Listening to "Jesus Loves Me" for the first time was a deeply upsetting experience, particularly in the wake of the Kill Whitey thing.
― HI DERE, Monday, 21 June 2010 19:27 (thirteen years ago) link
Anyway, this isn't really my fight. See you over in the Scout Niblett thread.
― The Bartered Bride (Ówen P.), Monday, 21 June 2010 19:28 (thirteen years ago) link
not digging their aesthetic at all. broken old-timey folk with crappy loops/noise/digital effects = no thank you. sonic ugliness prevents me from caring about what any of their lyrics are actually about.
― in my day we had to walk 10 miles in the snow for VU bootleg (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 21 June 2010 19:29 (thirteen years ago) link
actively seeking out the one where they talk about how Jesus doesn't love their nigger friends or their nigger wives is a mistake, don't do it
― HI DERE, Monday, 21 June 2010 19:31 (thirteen years ago) link
No?
as women Cocorosie are dismissed because their visual presentation frustrates many male writers’ abilities to sexualize them ... don’t be Aryan muscle-boys...
I do apologise for tarring all the writers with a single brush. Rereading, there are many for whom my criticisms don't apply at all. I was blinded by the other bullshit.
― sean gramophone, Monday, 21 June 2010 19:31 (thirteen years ago) link
don't really get where racism angle figures into this either - re: the original article is it really so surprising some pretentious twee indie folkie girl would feel out of place/threatened/uncomfortable in yr average hip hop club...?
― in my day we had to walk 10 miles in the snow for VU bootleg (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 21 June 2010 19:32 (thirteen years ago) link
hahaha um oh okay NOW I get it
o_O daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaang
― The Black Keys - white boys can still throw down (crüt), Monday, 21 June 2010 19:33 (thirteen years ago) link
aside from the shitty music and racism this makes me sad because I love yoko ono
― The Black Keys - white boys can still throw down (crüt), Monday, 21 June 2010 19:34 (thirteen years ago) link
yeah i like a lot of the people giving approving quotes there! whaddyagonnado
― kenny logins (goole), Monday, 21 June 2010 19:37 (thirteen years ago) link
this reminds me a little of the time I had to ignore the many awesome directors backing up Polanski (though obv the offenses are not in any way comparable)
― Simon H., Monday, 21 June 2010 19:42 (thirteen years ago) link
lol nice caveat there
― kenny logins (goole), Monday, 21 June 2010 19:42 (thirteen years ago) link
the full lyrics to that song:
Jesus loves meBut not my wifeNot my nigger friendsOr their nigger livesBut jesus loves meDat for sure'Cause the bible tell me soRead your bible good and wellDon't forget about that apple spellDon't fall in the wishing wellWishing for heaven and gettin' hellWash behind your ears don't smellCover them freckles don't ask don't tellKiss your papa but not too longHold his handDon't do no wrongJesus loves meBut not my wifeNot my nigger friendsOr their nigger livesBut jesus loves meDat for sure'Cause the bible tell me soHush don't cryDry them tearsTime'll wash away all them yearsScar or a bruisePick and chooseWhen you're all grown upYou'll have the bluesLife'll give you that wedding ringFancy cars and diamond thingsYou best believe in Jesus' wayAnd never fall asleep forgetting to prayJesus loves meBut not my wifeNot my nigger friendsOr their nigger livesBut jesus loves meDat for sure'Cause the bible tell me so'Cause the bible tell me so
Read your bible good and wellDon't forget about that apple spellDon't fall in the wishing wellWishing for heaven and gettin' hellWash behind your ears don't smellCover them freckles don't ask don't tellKiss your papa but not too longHold his handDon't do no wrong
Jesus loves meBut not my wifeNot my nigger friendsOr their nigger livesBut jesus loves meDat for sure'Cause the bible tell me so
Hush don't cryDry them tearsTime'll wash away all them yearsScar or a bruisePick and chooseWhen you're all grown upYou'll have the bluesLife'll give you that wedding ringFancy cars and diamond thingsYou best believe in Jesus' wayAnd never fall asleep forgetting to pray
'Cause the bible tell me so
what it's supposed to be: A satirical take on the contradictory nature of religious values
why it fails: Because it uses the word "nigger" for no reason other than a hateful evocation of black people, yet uses much more restrained/sensitive verbiage to talk about issues surrounding the arbitrariness of some bible rules as well as the sexism and homophobia, it explicitly singles out black people for disdain and derision in a manner wholly out of keeping with the rest of the song, completely undercutting any meaningful message it's supposed to have with a very strong, palpable undercurrent of "btw if you are black, fuck off; we don't want you listening to our music".
This is the type of hamfisted, unthinking point-making you do when you are either a sheltered kid who has heard of racism but have never actually experienced it or a self-absorbed person who lacks the empathy necessary to translate your experience into terms that make the experience relatable rather than repellent and offensive to others who have gone through similar experiences. Had there been parity in language with references to "faggots" and "bitches", the point of view would have been better defined and the narrative less confused; as it stands, you have a song by some people who hate religion and black people but only realize that they hate religion.
― HI DERE, Monday, 21 June 2010 19:45 (thirteen years ago) link
holy shit @ lyrics
― call all destroyer, Monday, 21 June 2010 19:49 (thirteen years ago) link
just reading it (not listening to it) the use of "nigger" reads like a poor trolling attempt. Like ho-hum here's a song about that wacky Jesus, oh by the way, RACISM!
*yawn*
― in my day we had to walk 10 miles in the snow for VU bootleg (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 21 June 2010 19:50 (thirteen years ago) link
it seems to me like this: like a bunch of kids at a nice college who are so moved and disgusted by the history of racial violence in this country, and outraged that the rest of the student body doesn't really think about it, that they do up one of them in blackface and stage a mock lynching in the quad. and then they don't even get why everyone would be mad at them for pulling a stunt like that, and can barely explain why they did it.
now, set it to music (no beats tho)
― kenny logins (goole), Monday, 21 June 2010 19:51 (thirteen years ago) link
(For similar examples, see also: The The - "The Violence of Truth" and Christian Death - "Romeo's Distress")
― HI DERE, Monday, 21 June 2010 19:51 (thirteen years ago) link
I like their music a lot, generally (first two albums a lot less than the second two), am really bummed out by their "provocative" race stuff but I listen to a lot of heavy metal bands who hold noxious beliefs & express them (albeit in more heavily coded language) & have sorta been doing the disconnect-from-shit-that-offends-me dance with music all my life -- I'm a pretty easily offended guy, actually, but I mean...I listen to goregrind. I don't think goregrind is making any kind of critical commentary on the behavior it details. I think it's pretty offensive, if I really think about it, but I also enjoy it.
basically CR is a band I like but with some big reservations & I can 100% imagine myself hating them, if I didn't respond so heavily to the last two albums - if I were building a case for them, I'd say listen to "Rainbowarriors," "Raphael," "Werewolf," "Smokey Taboo," "Undertaker," and "The Moon Asked the Crow" -- but I wouldn't build a case for them, because the sounds they make & especially Bianca's vocal persona/delivery are either going to register with you or not.
xpost yeah ha basically the first time I had to go "hey, fuck you, band making music I like, what the fuck is wrong with your juvenile ass" was "Romeo's Distress"
― get your bucket of free wings (underrated aerosmith albums I have loved), Monday, 21 June 2010 19:53 (thirteen years ago) link
I can't work out who's worse; CocoRosie, Two Gallants or Country Teasers :-(
― Jamie_ATP, Monday, 21 June 2010 19:56 (thirteen years ago) link
While googling, the first song of theirs I encountered was "Rainbowarriors" and I was like "why are people objecting so heavily to these girls, this is kind of pretty if not entirely my thing"
Then I googled "cocorosie racism" and discovered "Jesus Loves Me" and really at this point I need to stop writing before I just lose it.
― HI DERE, Monday, 21 June 2010 19:57 (thirteen years ago) link
aero i have a hard time believing you hated joanna newsom so much, if you like CR! it's like the same thing only the songs are a third as long and have a quarter as much going on
― kenny logins (goole), Monday, 21 June 2010 19:57 (thirteen years ago) link
country teasers are pretty awesome
― m@tt h (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 21 June 2010 19:57 (thirteen years ago) link
Just to get a sense of where I'm coming from, if ever I encounter Robert Smith doing some shit like "Jesus Loves Me", I will be throwing away and deleting a lot of music I've built up over the past 23 years.
― HI DERE, Monday, 21 June 2010 19:58 (thirteen years ago) link
i can believe this thread has me digging up christian death youtubes
― kenny logins (goole), Monday, 21 June 2010 19:59 (thirteen years ago) link
it's like the same thing only the songs are a third as long and have a quarter as much going on
yeah this is def of a piece with Newsom, no?
― in my day we had to walk 10 miles in the snow for VU bootleg (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 21 June 2010 19:59 (thirteen years ago) link
lol "can't", ah well the jig is up i guess
― kenny logins (goole), Monday, 21 June 2010 20:00 (thirteen years ago) link
They "explained" Jesus Loves Me in this interview: http://www.splendidezine.com/features/cocorosie/
― De que estas hablando? (Tannenbaum Schmidt), Monday, 21 June 2010 20:00 (thirteen years ago) link
i really want to listen to this band but i lent someone my headphones so they could do online training :(
― call all destroyer, Monday, 21 June 2010 20:00 (thirteen years ago) link
These are some good analyses, HI DERE, free wings.
― The Bartered Bride (Ówen P.), Monday, 21 June 2010 20:00 (thirteen years ago) link
fortunately I don't think they'll get any worse than lol tolhurst in blackface
― The Black Keys - white boys can still throw down (crüt), Monday, 21 June 2010 20:01 (thirteen years ago) link
"a third as long and have a quarter as much going on" is a big plus in my book - I do not want to hear any singer-songwriter's 10-minute indulgence
I liked JN's first album a lot but nobody pays attention when I say that, I cannot be bothered with any super-long "song suites" or whatever, I attribute this to my godawful lawlessness
― get your bucket of free wings (underrated aerosmith albums I have loved), Monday, 21 June 2010 20:03 (thirteen years ago) link
well a third as long i can get with, yeah
― kenny logins (goole), Monday, 21 June 2010 20:04 (thirteen years ago) link
lol
― Jamie_ATP, Monday, 21 June 2010 20:05 (thirteen years ago) link
argh, I'm trying to write something coherent about this elsewhere, but HI DERE is going to remain OTM about this, and I enjoy Jamie Stewart but his commentary on Cocorosie is absolutely moronic, on multiple levels
― oɔsıqɐu (nabisco), Monday, 21 June 2010 20:05 (thirteen years ago) link
the beginning of that linked interview is hilarious
xp: about the only reason The Cure got away with Lol in blackface in that video with me is because I'm totally inconsistent and because the entire thing is incompetent from head to toe (also that's the video where they were calling Lol a cunt IIRC so it seemed like him being in blackface was more band inside cruelty than an overt statement on race)
― HI DERE, Monday, 21 June 2010 20:06 (thirteen years ago) link
I borrowed a couple of you guys' posts for this: http://chainofknives.tumblr.com/ / http://chainofknives.tumblr.com/post/722859553/op-ed-an-artists-dialogue-on-cocorosies-grey-oceans
― Johnny Fever, Monday, 21 June 2010 20:12 (thirteen years ago) link
Really? Well... "Jesus Loves Me", I don't know if you recognize it, but it's a children's song, and it's really popular. I don't know if it's really popular in Canada as well. Anyway, kids learn it really early, and it's really stripping down Christianity to its most basic, to a child's perspective. There's such a large population of African-Americans for whom Christianity is a huge thing, but Christianity still remains to be exclusive, and is very segregated, and it's very intricately connected to an old-fashioned mentality that's still very racist. To me, it's a huge contradiction with Christ's message.
*sigh*
this person is stupid
― in my day we had to walk 10 miles in the snow for VU bootleg (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 21 June 2010 20:20 (thirteen years ago) link
like if anything there's some really fundamental misreading of black culture/Xtianity going on there, among other things
yeah. it is sooooooooooooo not the Christian church's fault that Christian churches are largely segregated
― The Black Keys - white boys can still throw down (crüt), Monday, 21 June 2010 20:22 (thirteen years ago) link
not to mention a fundamental ignorance of history
― HI DERE, Monday, 21 June 2010 20:24 (thirteen years ago) link
Really? Well... "Jesus Loves Me", I don't know if you recognize it, but it's a Cocorosie song, and it's really popular. I don't know if it's really popular in Canada as well. Anyway, kids learn it really early, and it's really stripping down Christianity to its most basic, to a child's perspective. There's such a large population of African-Americans for whom indie rock is a huge thing, but indie rock still remains to be exclusive, and is very segregated, and it's very intricately connected to an old-fashioned mentality that's still very racist. To me, it's a huge contradiction with Cocorosie's message.
― The Black Keys - white boys can still throw down (crüt), Monday, 21 June 2010 20:25 (thirteen years ago) link