I merely mentioned two differences, and each has its own set of ramifications.
As I already stated, I'm largely apathetic to whether it gets legalized or not, and my main issue is with recreational users taking advantage of laws designed to shield a those with valid medical conditions from prosecution.
All matter of substances, be they alcohol, illicit drugs, over-the-counter, or prescribed pills have the potential for misuse and abuse. If marijuana were to be legalized, it would be nice to think that everybody would use it responsibly, but that isn't even the case now. My concern rises when it becomes a public safety issue, and which criteria would then be used to determine legal vs. illegal use. DUI and public intoxication rules are obviously the biggest, and to say it should just be treated like alcohol is naïve, since with alcohol we can accurately quantify the amt. of one's intoxication. With weed, not so much. A daily drinker, if they haven't had any that day, would blow a clean breathalyzer. A daily smoker, even if they had gone without for a few days, would still test dirty. This would open a huge grey area wrt court cases involving DUI charges, etc. Why shouldn't I be skeptical that the existing legislation would neatly cover everything, and that there won't be any unforeseen issues with legalization?
― naus, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 05:47 (thirteen years ago) link
I could almost, as a cursory matter, see the rationale of getting upset about recreational pot users "abusing" some law that exists for the benefit of medical marijuana users, but then I pause, squint real hard, and think to myself "no actually why would I give a shit about that, like at all?"
I mean if I don't care if it's legalized or not, and if I don't care if someone uses it or not, I'm supposed to get offended if they do so for sham reasons under the pretext of a law where the state clearly isn't interested in drawing the distinction? I'm sorry, but that's really fucking stupid.
― Mister Jim, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 06:10 (thirteen years ago) link
by drawing the distinction, I meant enforcing the distinction.
― Mister Jim, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 06:16 (thirteen years ago) link
Is it?
It didn't bother me until about last month, when it made my job quite impossible. I work in child welfare, primarily with relatives of children who are dependents of the court. I assess these relatives for their suitability to care for the children, and have to make sure they're compliant w/ state regulations and pretty much holding them to the same standards a licensed foster home would be held to. I recently got two cases where one of the applicants has a MM recommendation. I had to ask each about their use (when, where, how often, how much), potentially violating their HIPAA rights, just to be able to ascertain that the child's safety could be provided for. There's a HUGE grey area wrt current policy, and CA's Depts. of Social Services and Community Care Licensing are totally vague.
In one case, the child had already been in the home, and upon my inspection, I found that the relative caregiver was growing quite a substantial crop, way beyond the 12 immature or 6 mature per patient as codified in the law. That required so many case staffings, multi-agency investigations, and still isn't completely resolved.
On the plus side, I've pretty much gotten a crash course on much of the current legislation (namely H&S 11357-11362), and am quite aware of where it falls short.
(This thread is de-indexed, right?)
― naus, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 06:39 (thirteen years ago) link
if weed was legal smoking it wouldnt be cool anymore
― has mia ever been so far as to go even do what more like? (Lamp), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 06:52 (thirteen years ago) link
also mexican drug lords wld have less money, probably
― has mia ever been so far as to go even do what more like? (Lamp), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 06:53 (thirteen years ago) link
naus OTM
― Super Cub, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 07:11 (thirteen years ago) link
and you (naus) sound like you are very good at a very important job.
― Super Cub, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 07:13 (thirteen years ago) link
never been to holland eh lamp
― get your bucket of free wings (underrated aerosmith albums I have loved), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 07:14 (thirteen years ago) link
http://www.youtube.com/user/hashbean420
― i be like... ham (crüt), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 07:41 (thirteen years ago) link
Hobbies: growing smoking makeing canna concentrates playing guitar ,bluesharp, mouth harp collecting glass and helping ppl out
― i be like... ham (crüt), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 07:42 (thirteen years ago) link
Man, I remember how drinking lost all its cache when they ended prohibition.
― fuck being hard, suburbs are complicated (The Reverend), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 11:17 (thirteen years ago) link
And naus, I understand your concerns better now, but I don't think legalization should be held up by the fact that there are inadequate means of testing for intoxication.
― fuck being hard, suburbs are complicated (The Reverend), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 11:20 (thirteen years ago) link
I recently got two cases where one of the applicants has a MM recommendation. I had to ask each about their use (when, where, how often, how much), potentially violating their HIPAA rights, just to be able to ascertain that the child's safety could be provided for.
point being: if John is a responsible adult who enjoys getting stoned from time to time, is confident that it does not negatively affect him too much (i.e. in a way that would render him unsuitable to be say a child's guardian), lives in a state with highly-abusable medical marijuana laws, and wants to take care of his nephew... at some point, doesn't obtaining a medical marijuana card under false pretenses actually demonstrate responsibility, in some bizarre way, as it reduces the risk that he'll run afoul of the law and the kid will be back in a foster home?
― INSUFFICIENT FUN (bernard snowy), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 12:11 (thirteen years ago) link
don't u think that…you would be able to 'pick up on it' during the course of a standard evaluation process?
Not always, as my visits are usually always scheduled in advance. People can do quite a bit to clean things up before I actually arrive at the home. This includes hiding things (leaving things w/ friends and other relatives, coaching the kids, and doing anything else to minimize things that could reflect poorly on them.
With alcohol, it's pretty simple. Adults can drink, but they can't be drunk around the kids. "One with dinner" usually works as a reasonable guideline.
Of course, if I came across someone who obviously used and could not furnish any sort of recommendation, it's pretty easy. But w/ the Compassionate Use legislation pretty much does nothing more than provide certain exceptions to existing law. If it were to go fully legal, it would have to be codified to a greater extent than simply appending "and marijuana" to the existing alcohol laws.
Having to constantly rely on verbal reportage and and observations of one's affect opens me up to messy court issues, grievances, and possible civil actions.
― naus, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 19:42 (thirteen years ago) link
I'm having trouble following your argument against the sham prescription medical marijuana users. Who's the victim supposed to be?
― Mister Jim, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:23 (thirteen years ago) link
imo naus is mistaking the camel's nose for the whole camel
― all yoga attacks are fire based (rogermexico.), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:44 (thirteen years ago) link
i mean, Prop 215 was always clearly a gateway initiative
― all yoga attacks are fire based (rogermexico.), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 20:48 (thirteen years ago) link
naus, back in the day they couldn't measure BAC for drunk drivers. should etoh have been made illegal until science provided that means?
― hope this helps (Granny Dainger), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 22:20 (thirteen years ago) link
"yes, if it would make the bureaucratic part of my job easier"
― all yoga attacks are fire based (rogermexico.), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 22:31 (thirteen years ago) link
i mean, i don't really intend to be unsympathetic but given that The Man has used the legal status of weed as a tool oppress and dominate and flip and profit from anyone without a country club membership for going on 100 years now, "but what about the children" just doesn't automatically get my head nodding
(btw I'm not even a doper, just angry)
― all yoga attacks are fire based (rogermexico.), Wednesday, 9 June 2010 22:35 (thirteen years ago) link
"With alcohol, it's pretty simple. Adults can drink, but they can't be drunk around the kids. "One with dinner" usually works as a reasonable guideline."
wait, "one" is one bottle of wine, right?
― scott seward, Wednesday, 9 June 2010 22:35 (thirteen years ago) link
Roger, it's not just to make my job easier. It's just that at the very limited intersection of my profession and current legislation, I've found that there's a lot left uncovered, and should be covered. In the interest of the public's health and welfare, I just feel that it would be reckless for voters to legalize it without a thorough set of guidelines accompanying it. Even places like Amsterdam have guidelines on when, where, and how much can be possessed, purchased, cultivated, etc. This just isn't a matter to let precedent and case law dictate.
I also disagree with you in that I don't see the legal status of a controlled substance as being a civil rights issue. Disparities amongst protected classes in sentencing and even law enforcement's conduct, sure, but there is no right to get high.
Jim, when your average burnout uses a medical argument to obtain weed because he wants to party, it does stigmatize those with valid medical needs. I might be the only one claiming that here, but I know of plenty who also feel that way. I know if I had a condition where MM was the only effective option, I'd probably feel a little put off if I were picking up some from a dispensary and saw another customer bragging about how they just scored some dank nugs and that tonight's session is going to be amazing.
I take a pretty liberal stance towards it, and feel that what a responsible adult does in the privacy of his/her own home is (and ought to be) of little concern to me, as long as it does not interfere with their ability to be an effective parent/caregiver, that they're not contributing to the delinquency of minors, and that nobody else is in any way being endangered. But for those instances that it does effect others, there should be new mechanisms in place to deal with it.
― naus, Thursday, 10 June 2010 02:13 (thirteen years ago) link
there is no right to get high
sure there is! i mean you pretty much said so yourself in your last paragraph.
― hope this helps (Granny Dainger), Thursday, 10 June 2010 18:41 (thirteen years ago) link
you have like the straightedge dork's view of stereotypical potsmokers, i should just shut up now
― hope this helps (Granny Dainger), Thursday, 10 June 2010 18:44 (thirteen years ago) link
off to smoke my dank nuggs bro!
Hope you have an epic session
― suburbaniatee (Aerosol), Thursday, 10 June 2010 18:55 (thirteen years ago) link
lol'n at granny!
― fuck BP in the ass, seriously (jdchurchill), Thursday, 10 June 2010 20:39 (thirteen years ago) link
yeah i'm just going to chime in here to say that i don't really understand what naus is on about. if you can't really show someone is impaired by any other measure than a blood concentration test then can you really say they're impaired?
like, the people in authority can't demonstrate any sort of lack of attention or coordination or visual acuity here but they're going to claim that you're impaired? it strikes me as an approach that says that it's more important to have a rule that you can enforce than to have a rule that makes sense.
also bragging about scoring dank nugs and tonight's session would get me kicked out of both the cooperatives that i visit.
― moonship journey to baja, Thursday, 10 June 2010 21:16 (thirteen years ago) link
Even places like Amsterdam have guidelines on when, where, and how much can be possessed, purchased, cultivated, etc.
also, as a medical marijuana patient, i can assure you that there are pretty thorough guidelines on when, where and how much can be possessed, purchased, cultivated, etc.
― moonship journey to baja, Thursday, 10 June 2010 21:18 (thirteen years ago) link
^^ so anyway is there anything about this sentence that applies specifically to marijuana and not alcohol? or do you routinely schedule breathalyzer tests for people on your caseload?
come to think of it, isn't this equally true for any sort of behavior that could adversely affect the kids?
― moonship journey to baja, Thursday, 10 June 2010 21:21 (thirteen years ago) link
no just weed
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Thursday, 10 June 2010 21:22 (thirteen years ago) link
I am a better parent when I'm high
you mean when you're *medicated*
― moonship journey to baja, Thursday, 10 June 2010 21:23 (thirteen years ago) link
crash course in marijuana dispensary etiquette, for those of you who might be wondering
customers = "patients"marijuana = "medication"getting high = "medicating"
― moonship journey to baja, Thursday, 10 June 2010 21:24 (thirteen years ago) link
I don't have children iirc don't arrest me naus
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Thursday, 10 June 2010 21:26 (thirteen years ago) link
my nugs....are my children
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Thursday, 10 June 2010 21:27 (thirteen years ago) link
as a high school teacher, i am *extremely* disturbed by the lack of proper drug testing tools for marijuana
a kid could be in school, doing well in class, getting along with friends, not showing any changes in personality ... and yet, i have no way of knowing if they're getting high after school!!!!
― moonship journey to baja, Thursday, 10 June 2010 21:30 (thirteen years ago) link
dude, you know you can tell
― All small bassoons have at one time or another been called fagottino (crüt), Thursday, 10 June 2010 21:32 (thirteen years ago) link
lol
― Trip Maker, Thursday, 10 June 2010 21:33 (thirteen years ago) link
one of my friends on the moonship plan (medicated high school teacher) still has enough teaching vigor to call his students out when they're high
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Thursday, 10 June 2010 21:35 (thirteen years ago) link
#1 starts every sentence w "dude"
― hope this helps (Granny Dainger), Thursday, 10 June 2010 21:36 (thirteen years ago) link
#2 has pizza delivered to classroom
i actually caught a kid with weed at school a couple of months ago. i asked him what he had in the baggie and he said "herbal medicine". i was sad that he got expelled, but rules are rules.
― moonship journey to baja, Thursday, 10 June 2010 21:37 (thirteen years ago) link
Your friend actually teaches while he's on medical marijuana?
― Mordy, Thursday, 10 June 2010 21:37 (thirteen years ago) link
noooooo
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Thursday, 10 June 2010 21:38 (thirteen years ago) link
could not imagine what a nightmare that would be
kid was dumb for saying he had any sort of "medicine" at school iirc
― All small bassoons have at one time or another been called fagottino (crüt), Thursday, 10 June 2010 21:38 (thirteen years ago) link
we were actually super-tight too. he wrote me a long rambly email later where he apologized for his bad decision and said he'd always love me. i hope he's making better decisions now. if i brought my medication in to work i'd be fired in a heartbeat! (we're not even allowed to have OTC medication in our office)
― moonship journey to baja, Thursday, 10 June 2010 21:39 (thirteen years ago) link
Yeah, seriously. Cannot imagine someone teaching (or learning) while actually on marijuana at that moment.
― Mordy, Thursday, 10 June 2010 21:39 (thirteen years ago) link