the genre known as dubstep - search and destroy

How is this any less hermetic than most music making going on everywhere right now? And why is its hermeticness necessarily a bad thing? :Preaching to the choir perhaps? (which is bad in general,. across an entire culture, yes....)

Where is this non-self referential music- pop? mired in po mo slow mo... metal? creating avant versions of past trends... Indie? Retro a gogo... Hip Hop? Improv? Norwegian Jazz? MOR?

To what leading edge would you direct us? (forgive the sarcasm- I would genuinely like to know...)

And it's hermetic because a) very few people other than music critics know or care about the hardcore continuum b) the hardcore continuum itself is hermetic. It's just a way of constructing the musical universe in order to continually place a small subset of British dance music at the center of everything that is radical. And there were a few years when that subset arguably was at the center of British culture, if not anyone else's. But those years are long long gone, and dance music--and especially dance music like Burial--isn't anywhere near the center of anything anymore.

So sure, all music is self-referential, but when the references are picked up by a tiny audience, they become hermetic. Arctic Monkeys are totally derivative, but a lot of people like them--regardless of whatever media conspiracies you might wish to spin--and that alone makes them matter.

No 'remedy' is necessary. I don't really care about the 'leading edge,' in fact I think the very concept is bogus--a form of marketing, basically--and I'm actively opposed to it.

Aside from all that, I just think the emotional register of the music is so timid (and one could have said this about Urban Tribe, or plenty of Mo' Wax stuff, in fact a lot of dance music that professes to be for something other than dancing. It's all this wistful fading synth wash crap, and you have to work so hard at projecting meaning into it... which is perhaps why people wind up over-reading...

I suspect Burial did not write this music with these references in mind somehow, these are post-justifications for the work of someone who works with samples, likes 2 step, and feels his production skills are sub par (wrongly) and therefore cloaks them in static (thats what he claims anyway).

Craetively speaking hermeticism is crushing to future developments of interest outside of an endless post modernist cycle thru past ideas, no matter how far said music reaches... (and I think innovation is more than a mere marketing strategy, although it is that as well)

I don't buy the whole Arctic Monkeys are big and therfore "important". Significant perhaps, as a guide to what people will buy, how marketing strategies work etc...

Whether something reaches to a big audience or not is not a guide to quality (either way) tho I suspect you would agree with me there. So therefore the AMs are just as hermetic, it just happens more people like it. That means little to me (personally). They are hardly reaching out in any way other than a market-defined one (ie- musically they are not bridging any gaps, they exist in an imaginative straight jacket even more limited than that imposed by the supposed hardcore continuum...). For me to enjoy the AMs would require just as much "projection" of meaning...

NO

OTOH i DO agree with this bit:

you have to be intimately familiar with the history and theory of the quote-unquote hardcore continuum. For instance, I happen to recognize those decaying mentasm stabs ... but if you don't, it's just another electronic noise

still, i don't think somebody HAS to be intimately familiar to at least get some aesthetic pleasure out of burial.

it sounds to me like you're somewhat over-familiar with those strategies - as is probably anybody who's been following basic channel since day 1! i could see that coming to grips with that might be much harderfor you than coming to grips with layers of strange electronic noise might be for an arctic monkeys fan!

And I don't buy the whole "people are sheep" thing. As Hollywood blockbusters prove every year, you cannot make something a hit unless people like it. Marketing will get you onto the radar, but it can't do any more than that.

So therefore the AMs are just as hermetic, it just happens more people like it. That means little to me (personally).

That's a sign of your solipsism, then. Artwork does not exist independent of the world, or the audience, either in its creation or its reception. How the audience reacts is an intrinsic part of the meaning of any piece of music. And one of the most interesting things to think about, too. Certainly more interesting than exhausting the dictionary of adjectives droning on about basslines that collapse in on themselves, etc.

That's just it! That's all it is. You just get the idea that there's some vague sense of sadness in the air. There's no dimension or nuance to the sadness. It's all so wan, so one-note.

Marketing does a bit more than get stuff on the radar, I think, although that is perhaps a large part of its functionality...

The AMs are hermetic CREATIVELY. They aren't building bridges ARTISTICALLY, merely COMMERCIALLY-- they sell more records. As this is not an indicator of quality (either way) they remain just as hermetic.

And how ARE the audience reacting to AMs then? Many (younger ones) say they are exciting, they say something about their lives, and they are good music to go out to etc. Many (older ones) perhaps say they are nothing special, but have some good tunes. Why is this interesting? Qualitatively?

No, it means it resonates in the kul-cha. It might not resonate in any particularly deep way. But why it does is worth teasing out, because it might tell us something about our society. (And that's what makes, say, Tom Ewing's Popular blog interesting.)

Aside from that, I find Arctic Monkeys far more vivid, entertaining, and complex on a straightforward musical level than Burial. I don't think you do need to know the references to enjoy them. But that's by the by.

Urban Tribe don't pick notes at all! Except maybe like one for every tune.

"THIS song has MORE emotions than THAT song"
"THIS song has BETTER emotions than THAT song"
"THIS song has MORE MEANINGFUL emotions than THAT song"

without actually being able to point at the emotions are in this song or that. you will probably fall back on "well, i just FEEL the emotions" - which is ironic, considering you're accusing people of solipsism. you can't have it both ways - implying overreading or overreaching in other's interpretive skills and then taking a strong subjectivist viewpoint.

also these miles davis vs arctic monkeys vs urban tribe vs burial arguments revolving around fanbase are just idiotic!

did urban tribe spend years touring and playing clubs as support for better-known bandleaders? has burial been relentlessly playing shows and making the press? i don't think it makes sense to compare arctic monkeys and urban tribe when they're working w/ two very different infrastructures - and surely you're not going to argue that the infrastructure just sprung up overnight around the monkeys because they connect that much better w/ the fans!

These are legitimate arguments... but need more clarity perhaps?

so i can't point out your wack use of rhetoric without being accused of indulging in "technical meta-debate"?

oh and AMs aesthetically=death in my mind, it is true (probably as death as Burial is in yrs...)

did urban tribe spend years touring and playing clubs as support for better-known bandleaders? has burial been relentlessly playing shows and making the press? i don't think it makes sense to compare arctic monkeys and urban tribe when they're working w/ two very different infrastructures - and surely you're not going to argue that the infrastructure just sprung up overnight around the monkeys because they connect that much better w/ the fans!

This adds up to the following: Any kind of qualitative comparison is impossible. Which is one big smokescreen that has been played out on a million threads before this one.

I don't think your dad 'proves' anything. I just think his assessment is correct.

so i can't point out your wack use of rhetoric without being accused of indulging in "technical meta-debate"?

But that's not what you're doing. Instead of responding to the specifics of what I say, you're just jumping straight into a really tedious objective vs. subjective debate that could be applied to anything at all as a way of cutting the legs out from under me.

you shouldn't compare burial and arctic monkeys

There's no shouldn't about it. I'll compare anything I like, thanks. It's a lot more fruitful than pretending that everything exists in it's own... hermetic... little universe.

And whilst examining their impact and what that means is interesting (I've done it- it was interesting yes) I don't see why this means that this impacts on the music. You yourself seem to like them for the music they make, whereas I don't...

I don't think they're culturally hermetic, because a lot of people like them. It's a pretty simple point, although one you seem to have trouble with. Formally, sure, they are--although I think an obsession with form is one of the most obvious blinkers worn by people who think from the dance music context. In terms of attitude/content, I don't think they are hermetic.

For the record, I don't think they're the greatest thing since sliced bread either. They were just a good... comparison... point with Burial in terms of the level of reference to a larger tradition in the music.

Of course, these things are not finally proveable. But the interesting thing is in attempting to argue about them, and thus attempting to articulate how and why a piece of music works.

What is not interesting is immediately jumping to the conclusion--this is not proveable! it's green eggs and ham! Because then what do we do? Stop talking and go home to our little universes.

i would not call this "articulate"

And on that note, I have to go to a meeting.

a lot of people like burial and urban tribe!

yeah, must be at least 10,000 worldwide. Lots.

Of course, articulating how and why a piece of music works is the really hard part that takes lots of time and thought and struggle... and thus rarely makes it onto internet message boards.

I don't exempt myself from this.

you have to compare "number of people who heard UT" vs "number of people who loved UT" - i'd say the number would be high, better maybe than even the arctic monkeys!

ah, there's always a conspiracy theory. poor urban tribe. if only they had the marketing, they would be topping the charts!

you have to compare "number of people who heard UT" vs "number of people who loved UT" - i'd say the number would be high, better maybe than even the arctic monkeys!

lol

And I would question whether examining music on the level of form is any more blinkered than yours...

"content"- is this lyrics to which you refer? "attitude"... well I guess my criticisms would again be along the lines of formalism there too! I get yr point, they reach a wide audience therefore they are non hermetic--- but why does this give them value on any level other than a socio-anthropological one?

I think this is the more relevant motivating factor behind any sense of disappointment with Burial's music: as per Junior Boys, it's tempting to assume that Burial is/are just being lauded for providing a neat composite of different music-crit strands of thinking popular within a certain bracket. The fact that it is a sonic composite makes me disinclined to argue that the music is hermetically sealed (surely it's less so than most of the dubstep it's played alongside?), or that this is the main issue at any rate.

Having said that, the novelty factor is much lower than for Junior Boys - almost certainly every person who'd be inclined to listen to Burial has already made the 2-step/dub-techno connection in their head. In fact the overwhelming majority discussion about Burial could all easily apply to Horsepower Productions' early work but for the historical developments of the past five years (the decline of 2-step, the rise of grime and its increasing drift towards hip hop, the increasing distance between 2-step and 90% of dubstep)allows people to add this whole elegiac "ghost of the hardcore continuum" dimension which didn't apply in 2001.

I don't think such a move is illegitimate: when you're deeply into a scene or group of inter-related scenes, then the shifting dynamics between different stylistic impulses can make certain approaches seem startlingly relevant even when they're effectively reiterations of what has come before. The "ghost of the hardcore continuum" dimension is something which people who are deep into jungle/2-step/dubstep/grime will pick up on a sensual level even if they've never read Reynolds. And it's not hard to see why people who've been slightly frustrated by dubstep's recent stiff-jointed grooves and inward-looking construction (the obsession with club-focused bass production mirroring precisely the same obsession which overtook drum & bass in the late 90s) might be overjoyed by the flickering reappearance of pre-dubstep sonic manoeuvres like vocal samples and 2-step beats.

(my private quibble with Burial, or at least Burial-type music, is that it uses these gestures-to-past-glories in the most obvious manner possible, they really are gestures rather than a meaningful engagement with the logic of 2-step, but there's other music that I like which does similar things vis-a-vis other past genres, so I'm aware that my issue here is partly motivated by my history as a 2-step lobbyist)

If Burial was being held up as particularly futurist or progressive, well, that would definitely be a step too far, but I don't think people like Reynolds/K-Punk etc. are actually doing this (in fact Reynolds noted on his blog that Burial's music was hardly surprising). If anything hauntology is a Dissensian crit-obssession explicitly designed to give people something to talk about while waiting for the next golden child of futurism to emerge.

(but I do think the "Omni Trio of the 00s" accolade is ridiculously off-base - surely this is based on a misreading of the media by people who haven't actually heard Burial (or Omni Trio, or both)?)

okay resume speaking eloquently (hell of rush post) :|

Boomkat called it "groundbreaking" but you know that's their style ;)

not. saying. much!

... allows people to add this whole elegiac "ghost of the hardcore continuum" dimension which didn't apply in 2001.
I don't think such a move is illegitimate

it's definitely not illegitimate. it's just the discourse itself is as exhausted as the music.

really, i'm just very tired of the hardcore continuum, and also constantly stunned at how tiny the musical world of Dissensus is, in contrast to the open-minded talk that's thrown around there. combine small world, grandiose rhetoric, and dead-end tradition...