Transport in London is shit

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Stop moaning, Leeds has just lost out on it's Supertram system which would as the money had to be diverted to London to improve the transport infrastructure for the Olympics.

Paul Kelly (kelly), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 05:37 (eighteen years ago) link

The management for decline was also the basis on which the railways were privatised. One reason that they were privatised was that it was obvious that at some point within the next 25 years the railways would fall apart and any government would not want to be seen to preside over that. Unfortunately an economic boom and a change in the British attitude towards travel accellerated the implosion. Now it can be argued that the private TOCs were better able to respond to this change in fortunes much better than BR ever would have done. However the infrastructure company, which had taken the worst aspects of BR management and merged them with a rather cavalier entrepreneurial spirit, was completely unable to cope.

It is very hard to judge privatisation. It cant be done over the ten years of privatisation as there have been at least 4 major re-organisations of the structure of the privatised railway system since privatisation. It is not a private enterprise either. Government money and interference are present at all levels of the industry (apart from, possibly, in the ROSCOs although HST2 will change that). Now, at least we are getting a structure that may work. The TOCs are now effectively service delivery companies running on the state owned infrastructure and Open Access operators are starting, in a small way, to be permitted to provide the innnovation needed to replace 80s service patterns. May be this will work. It's not so much the privatisation itself (although I am opposed to it in principle) it's the fact that it has been one long experiment to find a structure that works.

In Europe privatisations have happened in a very different way. Germany is a good contrasting example. There regional goverenments were given control of regional rail services and These were 'Franchised' (ineffect contracted) out to private operators or to the State run rail company. National services reamined in the public sector although the State owned operator was instructed to take a more commercial approach, to prepare itself for privatisation. It has done this, with mixed results; The frieght arm is now the biggest and most wide reaching railfreight business in Europe and after a number of losses it has started to win contracts to operate local rail services. It's ha s even bid, as part of consortia, for franchises in other european countries including britain. The state operato will be privatised in the next few years but as one large comapny, it may work it may not, we shall see.

It is at least acknowledged in Germany that the primary competetive pressure on rail are not from other Rail companies but from Road and Air and trying to stimulate Rail on Rail competition does not fit with the passenger mindset (freight is a different matter, there are significant open access operators in Germany).

Ed (dali), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 07:14 (eighteen years ago) link

Has there been a truly sucessful UK privatisation? Electricity maybe?

Ed (dali), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 07:23 (eighteen years ago) link

However that was a close run thing, if it hadn't been for china's insaciable demand for energy we'd probably all be groping around in the dark right now. We were so close to losing our base Load coal fired power stations just before a huge increase in demand.

Ed (dali), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 07:25 (eighteen years ago) link

You mention "80s service patterns" - it's worth pointing out that a lot of British railway service patterns have been set in stone since before 1900.

Forest Pines (ForestPines), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 07:26 (eighteen years ago) link

Oh, totally. but outside London's sphere of influence the multiple unti 'revolution' service patters really are what hold sway.

Ed (dali), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 07:28 (eighteen years ago) link

(this is from Understanding Systems Failures by Bignell and Fortune, which has a chapter on South Yorkshire's bus fares policy in the 1970s, and coincidentally sits on the bookcase next to my computer)

this might be my favourite ever ilx post.

The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 09:19 (eighteen years ago) link

this ones good for 2p Sheffield bus fares too

ambrose (ambrose), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 09:43 (eighteen years ago) link

And if you're truly unable to find work, then the state will give you money.

Assuming this were true, which it isn't, they wouldn't give you enough to live on.

PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 10:44 (eighteen years ago) link

but if you had enough to live on you wouldn't be as motivated to find work [/gov logic]

Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 10:56 (eighteen years ago) link

But you're not actually talking about not being able to work, you're talking about not being able to get a specific job which you want to get without first getting experience in a low-paid environment in a location which costs you money to get to. All I'm saying is, if you don't like that, you can get another job. But what, are you claiming there are either NO JOBS AT ALL close to where you live, or that you CAN'T POSSIBLY MOVE to a place where there are jobs nearby? If that's the case, fair enough, the state should maybe subsidise you. But I don't believe it is.

if everybody in, say, ruislip or st albans looked for work within walking distance of their house... you'd have a lot of unemployed people.

The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 11:04 (eighteen years ago) link

because the state desgined the infrastructure based on people living in houses and commuting, as opposed to living in apartments closer in. we reap the 'benefits' of this three generations on.

The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 11:05 (eighteen years ago) link

They don't have to walk - they could get on their bikes [/Norman Tebbit]
(xpost)

Tehrannosaurus HoBB (the pirate king), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 11:06 (eighteen years ago) link

http://www.hornofplenty.co.uk/pics/jarrow.gif

Ed (dali), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 11:08 (eighteen years ago) link

if everybody in, say, ruislip or st albans looked for work within walking distance of their house... you'd have a lot of unemployed people.

well no they'd be employed but they'd have rubbish jobs.

Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 11:14 (eighteen years ago) link

i doubt it -- and presumably the effect on the national economy of london being left to the city boys, hipsters and mp3 girls would be diastrous.

The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 11:16 (eighteen years ago) link

mp3 girls

unfair of you to single out these 7 people.

Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 11:18 (eighteen years ago) link

Are mp3 girls related to the Daily Mirror's 3am girls?

Daniel Giraffe (Daniel Giraffe), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 12:17 (eighteen years ago) link

I was in london for the last 3 days with my mum who thought the tube was great.

leigh (leigh), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 12:54 (eighteen years ago) link

The tube *is* great if you ride it during the day when there's not a great commuter rush, and it's not the wee hours of the morning with infrequent trains.

She's In Parties (kate), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 13:06 (eighteen years ago) link

We were travelling during rush hour, even being squashed against sweaty commuters didn't seem to dampen her enthusiasm.

leigh (leigh), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 13:13 (eighteen years ago) link

weird.

The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 13:16 (eighteen years ago) link

it's different when you're a tourist. i've not met a visitor to London who didn't think the transport/travel facilities were great. i suppose part of that can be attributed to the romanticism associated with much of it and it's connection to the city in general. plus the obvious fact that they don't get to use it enough to experience enough problems to end up hating it.

Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 13:38 (eighteen years ago) link

Also the fact that the transport/travel facilities are usually appreciably better than the provinicial hellhole from whence they came *joke*

Dadaismus (Dada), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 13:45 (eighteen years ago) link

yeh, i used to love the tube too, before i lived here and even for a while after i did. when i was small it was WOW UNDERGROUND TRAINS COOL! then when i grew up it was just seemed to emblematic of london. it was the *filth* that got me in the end, even more than the constant "signal failures". i mean, i dig the city grime in general, but... yeuch.

emsk ( emsk), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 13:50 (eighteen years ago) link

It is a lot better than it was, filth wise. But you are right. My main gripe though is th lack of ventilation inherrent in the 'tube' design and the fac that we don't have 4 track tube lines anywhere in central london (to enable 24 h running and express services).

Ed (dali), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 13:54 (eighteen years ago) link

and the fac that we don't have 4 track tube lines anywhere in central london

well there's the Acton Town-Hammersmith section and the Wembley Park-Finchley Road plus Metroland sections but not quite the same thing i know.

Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 13:57 (eighteen years ago) link

that's hardly central London.

Ed (dali), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 13:59 (eighteen years ago) link

Signal failures used to be a bigger problem for tube trains than overground trains because overground trains *could* pass red signals, if necessary, easier than underground trains could. I'm not sure if this still applies.

On underground trains, after passing a signal at danger, the brakes automatically come on, and the driver has to get out of the cab to reset them. This traditionally was not the case on overground trains, but I think it now is also necessary on a lot of overground stock.

(this also applies to all other trains running on LU lines, such as most of the trains in and out of Marylebone station; I'm not sure if it applies to LU trains running on non-LU routes, and I'm fairly sure it doesn't apply to the other services on those routes)

Forest Pines (ForestPines), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 13:59 (eighteen years ago) link

Where is Metroland?

PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 14:00 (eighteen years ago) link

TPWS can be overidden to pass a signal at danger, however on the tube their is a lever that rises next to the track when a signal is red, this knocks a switch on any passing train to kill the power to the traction motors.

Ed (dali), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 14:01 (eighteen years ago) link

Metroland is Wembley to Aylesbury, more or less.

Ed (dali), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 14:02 (eighteen years ago) link

Also the fact that the transport/travel facilities are usually appreciably better than the provinicial hellhole from whence they came *joke*

why is that a joke? i was just about to say the same. apart from the hellhole bit.

had a presentation today which set me thinking. theres a split in this country between buses as a service which is controlled by a public body and provided by service provision companies, simply fulfilling requirements of the contract, and a situation where buses are removed from their status as inherently political products, open to competition, with the hope that the market will improve the product- to drag buses away from the operations-heavy approach of the past - "we tell you when and where the buses run, and we make them run that way" towards a industry that responds to passenger demands and looks to increase business - ie improve patronage more actively. in fact, i think these aims are laudable, but unfortunately the majority of operators, and it would seem the bigger they are, the worse offenders they are, are stuck (quite happily) between the two - they do little more than operate buses below a desirable standard, pay seemingly little attention to customers needs/desires and communicate very poorly with them, and yet focus on profitting from other means eg acquisitions and monopolisation, cost cuttign etc rather than increasing patronage through better service provision.

these two directions diverge quite seriously, and whilst london is allowed to pursue the first model without the stringent competitive requirements imposed on othewr areas, DfT, OFT, bus operators and PTES/local authorities are going to have to do some serious thinking about the fundamental guiding philosophy behind the bus industry structural model that we need for this country.

ambrose (ambrose), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 14:03 (eighteen years ago) link

TPWS can be overidden to pass a signal at danger

I was under the impression that on a lot of stock the TPWS reset is outdoors, like the tripcock on LU stock.

Forest Pines (ForestPines), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 14:07 (eighteen years ago) link

I think an overide can be sent by the signalman, however I'm going to see if there is any info.

Ed (dali), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 14:08 (eighteen years ago) link

I think we are poth correct. If the driver has recieved a proceed past a signal set at danger for the signalman then TPWS is overidden. In an ordinary SPAD situation the override is outside.

Ed (dali), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 14:12 (eighteen years ago) link

So it's still a lot simpler for overground services to avoid signal failures (unless you're trying to get to Aylesbury).

Forest Pines (ForestPines), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 14:13 (eighteen years ago) link

Signalling has got a good deal better on the tube. It is a lot less decrepit than it was.

Ed (dali), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 14:16 (eighteen years ago) link

buses VS Rail FITE

ambrose (ambrose), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 16:36 (eighteen years ago) link

horses for courses.

Ed (dali), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 16:37 (eighteen years ago) link

when i saw how much it cost to go to Manchester and back i really thought about taking a coach, or even the Megabus.

in fact i've just looked on National Express website and you can go from Golders Green to Manchester in just over 4 hours, which is nearly twice the journey time of a Pendolino BUT coming back the train and coach would roughly take the same time (both around 4 hours, according to the timetables) which makes no sense to me at all. and the NE return is half the price of the train.

ridiculous. if it had worked out cheaper i would've just got the train up but the coach back.

Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 16:50 (eighteen years ago) link

I think it would've as well. a mere NINE pounds to return by NE from Manc to London, in just over 4 hours. DAMNIT.

Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 16:53 (eighteen years ago) link

What day is that Steve? The Manchester trains are much slower at the weekends than during the week, so if you were heading north on a Friday and coming back on a Sunday that would make sense. Also, the coach timetable sounds like they're being rather optimistic about journey times.

Tehrannosaurus HoBB (the pirate king), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 17:03 (eighteen years ago) link

I wonder if this thread supports my theory that part of the problem with transport policy in the UK is that it attracts train, bus, and tube spotters with autistic tendencies who aren't able to form the necessary impartial overview.

Bob Six (bobbysix), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 17:07 (eighteen years ago) link

only takes 30 minutes now to go from miltno keynes to london euston omg wtf if i commute from MK sometimes i might get to work quicker than from holloway road lol.

ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 17:07 (eighteen years ago) link

yeh coming back Saturday, but why are they slower at the weekends?

I agree the coach time seems optimistic - maybe they should introduce a coach lane on some motorways ala bus lanes.

Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 17:08 (eighteen years ago) link

ridiculous or just intermodal competition? megabus is fine, but just cold and no where to put luggage. Train is just a luxury version of gettign the coach. Rail strikes me as the indulgent option for intercity travel, when i cant be arsed gettign the coach type thing. i frequently take that option, but ive given up being freaked out by prices. rail prices appear to occupy the space that air travel did until the low cost carriers came in. having said that, whiolst the saver ticket still exists then there is still scope for cheapish rail travel if advance booking is done.

in this point, its again a question of expectations. why do we expect to get reasonable fares on walk-up for railways, but would neevr expect that for a plane? why are we happy to book in advance to get the plane and not the train?
on a wider note, to what extent can we demand public transport on a schedule overall - are we going to have to accept a new model of pre booked, pre determined trips rather than expecting to turn up at any "Public Transport Access Node" and get on some form of transport? how viable or important is it for PTEs to subsidise private companies to ferry around fresh air at a lunchtime round some suburbs of a city?

finally, what is it that makes public transport, "public"? if its mass transport, then why is air travel not considered one of the gang? you can fit many mroe people on a plane than a coach for instance. so if its not a question of sheer numbers, is it more a question of importance in peoples lives - as people move abroad and commute, more frequently go on holiday, or simply commute from one end of the ocuntry to another, is it time to reassess how "vital" air travel is to peoples lives, for example in comparison to train travel?

i think the treatment of air travel as a seperate component, distinct from other forms of maass transport, as one that has no impact other than a handy effect of developing local economy/growth blah blah blah is not a positive thing. it needs to be considered in the light of every other mode of inter city transport, and i get the feeling that there just isnt full strategic thinking devoted to what sort of air transport network the UK needs and how it is goign to be brought aboutm ratehr than just "you want to build an airport? awesome!!!!" type thing that i have a hunch predominates at the mo

ambrose (ambrose), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 17:14 (eighteen years ago) link

I came home from manchester mid-january, thursday afternoon with 2 days notice, and only paid £12.50. It all seems a bit random. Megabus would've cost me £8 and taken twice as long (well, 4 hrs vs 2hr15).

JimD (JimD), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 17:15 (eighteen years ago) link

This talk of coaches reminds me of the *Jelly Bus that used to run overnight from Glasgow to London for about £8 or sumthin'

(*so called because in order to endure the mind-numbing boredom of it, half the passengers were on Temazepam, which also had the happy side effect that they wouldn't:
a) Talk to you
b) Fight you)

Dadaismus (Dada), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 17:18 (eighteen years ago) link

I was looking into going to Manchester and back (for football) on a Saturday in November/December. If I had booked five weeks in advance, and chosen to set off from London at stupid o'clock in the morning, I could have got a single each way for about £9. When I checked again about five days in advance there were no cheap tickets left, and prices for returns ranged between £100 and £600. Who the fuck would pay £600??? Surely the plane would be cheaper and quicker.

Tehrannosaurus HoBB (the pirate king), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 17:20 (eighteen years ago) link


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