not to be confused with "oh, ws aipac"
― ᵒ always toasted, never fried (crüt), Monday, 31 May 2010 20:12 (seven years ago) Permalink
wait wait there's no problem gaza's markets are crammed fullhttp://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/6044639/peace-convoy-this-was-an-islamist-terror-ambush.thtml
― stet, Monday, 31 May 2010 20:18 (seven years ago) Permalink
This totally reactive, stop-hitting-yourself position sometimes seems like the entire intellectual bedrock of the IDF. "We didn't kill you; you committed suicide by doing something we asked you not to." Just pretending to be robotically morally neutral, agency-free.
― oɔsıqɐu (nabisco), Monday, May 31, 2010 3:23 PM (59 minutes ago)
yeah this is so otm
― k3vin k., Monday, 31 May 2010 20:29 (seven years ago) Permalink
― spud webs (am0n), Monday, 31 May 2010 20:30 (seven years ago) Permalink
Members of this Israeli government have advocated fundamentally reducing the civil/human rights of Israeli Arabs.
From what I understand, the situation in Israel is quite different than say ten years ago. The secular, liberal segment of Israeli society is losing. The orthodox, extremist segment is winning. The "middle" has shifted pretty far right. Democracy in Israel may well be dying.
― Super Cub, Monday, May 31, 2010 8:55 PM (35 minutes ago) Bookmark
doubt many people would deny that israel has a particularly shitty government right now
but "democracy in israel may well be dying"? really?
― transient truff (history mayne), Monday, 31 May 2010 20:33 (seven years ago) Permalink
xpost. I really enjoyed 'Power, Faith, and Fantasy: America in the Middle East: 1776 to the Present' by Michael B. Oren. yet it concerns it's self with america's involvement with the middle east as a whole. But israel and palestine are both explored in depth in the book.
My dad's been wanting me to read this for a couple of years.
― Filmmaker, Author, Radio Host Stephen Baldwin (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 31 May 2010 20:38 (seven years ago) Permalink
And if the commandos were attacked with bars, (or throwing people off boats at some point in the altercation) how many people do you think you would have to shoot with assault rifles to make them stop?
― textbook blows on the head (dowd), Monday, 31 May 2010 20:39 (seven years ago) Permalink
That's an ugly scene, no doubt. It's totally understandable that the soldiers feared for their lives. IMO, that doesn't change the basic issue. Storming an aid flotilla full of protesters is not okay. It's not an acceptable way of dealing with this situation.
That also looks like a very poorly conceived operation. Dropping soldiers into the arms of an angry mob is not what I'd call a precision, surgical raid.
― Super Cub, Monday, 31 May 2010 20:40 (seven years ago) Permalink
― textbook blows on the head (dowd), Monday, May 31, 2010 9:39 PM (2 seconds ago) Bookmark
what's your answer, to the nearest decimal point?
That also looks like a very poorly conceived operation. Dropping soldiers into the arms of an angry mob is not what I'd call a precision, surgical raid.
indeed, but, well, it's a bit different than the "they landed and opened fire on sleeping civilians" line put out by the convoy earlier
― transient truff (history mayne), Monday, 31 May 2010 20:41 (seven years ago) Permalink
― textbook blows on the head (dowd), Monday, 31 May 2010 20:43 (seven years ago) Permalink
one thing, and like sorry if this is totally born out of ignorance on my part, but one of the things that I have never understood abt the yoking of anti-semitism w/ palestine conflict issues is that it seems to me at least to suppress how anti-arab/muslim sentiment might factor into western perception. In a) Israel's seemingly increased responsibility as a comparatively "western" middle eastern country versus a more exoticized Palestine whose cultural strangeness diminishes responsibility, although at the same time b) rendering Israelis more identifiable (for one thing you always meet loads of them staying in youth hostels, i guess american universities) as against the Palestinian population who still feel like a population that is "out there" and whose reality seems somewhat neutralised by cultural difference/geographic distance? Like "is this a thing" is what i mean?
― plax (ico), Monday, 31 May 2010 20:50 (seven years ago) Permalink
Dropping soldiers into the arms of an angry mob is not what I'd call a precision, surgical raid.
― i tried to think of a pas/cal pun but then i got bored (Tape Store), Monday, 31 May 2010 20:55 (seven years ago) Permalink
right. I'm not sure what has happened to the IDF's skill in operations--it used to do some fucked up things for sure, but it always managed to carry things out well. Now it just botches everything. idgi.
― nevermind312, Monday, 31 May 2010 21:10 (seven years ago) Permalink
MPAC keeping things reasonable i see
― former moderator, please give generously (DG), Monday, 31 May 2010 21:31 (seven years ago) Permalink
Shocking that anyone would confuse anti-Israel sentiment with anti-Semetic sentiment.
― Mordy, Monday, 31 May 2010 21:35 (seven years ago) Permalink
Btw, lol @ Sleeve above calling me an idiot Israel defender a few posts after I quote Arendt on Eichmann (!!) to describe Israel's relationship to Gaza. Like holy shit.
― Mordy, Monday, 31 May 2010 21:39 (seven years ago) Permalink
ugh at the swastika. i fucking hate the equating of what israel does with nazism - it's so blatantly anti-semitic.
― nevermind312, Monday, 31 May 2010 21:39 (seven years ago) Permalink
yeah im not saying its not a thing, just something i don't really understand the roots of (beyond the obvious but still) and wondering how I can understand it w/in a broader elaboration of cultural intolerance etc.
― plax (ico), Monday, 31 May 2010 21:39 (seven years ago) Permalink
radio 4 just had SAS novelist andy mcnab on, criticising the idf's tactics: "see, what you want to do is swamp the ship, not drip-feed your soldiers in, get it over quicker, safer for everyone".
― naglpuss (c sharp major), Monday, 31 May 2010 21:42 (seven years ago) Permalink
plaxico, what's your question? You realize that there's a super long historical history of anti-Semitism that predates Israel's creation by many many years, right?
― Mordy, Monday, 31 May 2010 21:46 (seven years ago) Permalink
Ugh at using a fucking octopus again. At least it keeps the brand identity going I guess. The blue octopus is Churchill, by the way - not sure why he gets the star halo, other than it being a nazi poster and therefore maybe not entirely logical.
― Ismael Klata, Monday, 31 May 2010 21:50 (seven years ago) Permalink
anti-Semites are critical of Israel =/ criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic
― Super Cub, Monday, 31 May 2010 21:52 (seven years ago) Permalink
Mordy you're the one who said "I hope the troops were fired on" etc., which I read as "I sure hope there was a good excuse for yet another Israeli massacre of civilians, cause if there wasn't then people will get mad at Israel and well of course that means Israel will have to kill even more people". Perhaps I misread you there, but I think there's a lack of perspective in that reasoning.
if there's a civilian death incident where you've failed to argue in favor of Israel I must have missed it, like I said these threads make me really unhappy and I generally stay away from them.
― bug holocaust (sleeve), Monday, 31 May 2010 21:53 (seven years ago) Permalink
yeah, like I'm not completely retarded, but I guess I think of Jewishness/Israel as separate, largely bc of like aqcuaintance w/ Israelis and also Jewish ppl of various nationalities and it just seems natural to separate them in a way that is more separate than just diaspora/native (like its a weird situ. where the diaspora kind of predates the country itself, but I realise that island living might have simplified my understanding of national borders somewhat) I mean, the mainstream equating of Jewish ppl and Israel feels more gallingly racist than it seems to be received as but again....
― plax (ico), Monday, 31 May 2010 21:54 (seven years ago) Permalink
Sleeve, I'd prefer if people didn't die. I'm not a big fan of violence in any direction, and I'm not really a fan of deciding whose actions are legitimate and whose aren't. So I was hoping that if the IDF killed those people, as tragic as it is, it wouldn't blow up into a huger much more horrific tragedy. I think it's pretty obvious tho that I don't think it was a positive thing for the world that Israel boarded the flotilla and killed those people. I think you're missing the perspective that limiting violence is a pretty great thing to try and do, even if everything else isn't perfect. There's some kind of belief that if you push the conflict hard enough, eventually it'll get so violent and horrible that a change will have to happen. That might be true, but there are plenty of cases in history where violence didn't lead to good stuff. I'd prefer peace was achieved through peaceful means. At this point, that means hoping that a) the IDF didn't act like psychos randomly killing sleeping civilians and b) that it doesn't escalate even further.
― Mordy, Monday, 31 May 2010 21:57 (seven years ago) Permalink
And I'm pretty sure that comparing Israel with Eichmann puts me definitely not in the camp of defending Israel. Unless you're such a hardliner that you think Nazi comparisons are actually too good for them. (I'll admit, I didn't put big flashing NAZI lights out, but I called their approach to Gaza as evil as I think evil comes in the world -- totally self-centered, tribal and thoughtless. I would think you could've read between the lines yourself.)
― Mordy, Monday, 31 May 2010 21:59 (seven years ago) Permalink
how does Israel compare with eichmann? i can't see any similarities between how Israel treats Gaza and the holocaust.
― nevermind312, Monday, 31 May 2010 22:11 (seven years ago) Permalink
I meant in terms of allowing horrific things to happen by virtue of thoughtlessness (that was Arendt's conclusion in Eichmann in Israel -- that evil only exists in one's inability to think through the meaning and consequences of their actions). Yes, totally different designing killing machines and being so thoughtless that you allow the suffering to continue in Gaza without taking drastic steps to alleviate it, or board a ship marked with humanitarian supplies for Gaza. I guess I'm more pro-Israel than a lot of people on ILX because I believe in a Jewish State of Israel (I can't understand how you can be against that but different conversation), so I realize how tricky most situations are in terms of protecting the State. But something like this seems so horrific and thoughtless that it can't be justified. Tbh, Bibi's coalition should be declared unconstitutional and Lieberman shouldn't be allowed in politics. Dude should be working with Livni full-time (she should be in charge imo, but even if not, she should at least be working in the cabinet). The government has totally gone over the edge and acting in just a totally careless, inhumane way.
― Mordy, Monday, 31 May 2010 22:15 (seven years ago) Permalink
I also believe Lieberman is actually really a fascist. Without scare-quotes or considerations.
― Mordy, Monday, 31 May 2010 22:16 (seven years ago) Permalink
I hate it when I edge closer to the line of thinking of the Free Palestine pamphleteers who lurk outside the underground.
― Gee, Officer (Gukbe), Monday, 31 May 2010 22:19 (seven years ago) Permalink
I'm just curious, people like Sleeve + k3v who clearly believe Israel is 100% at fault here -- what exactly do you believe they should have done? Do you believe they shouldn't worry about weapons being smuggled into Gaza for use on border cities like S'derot? Do you think there's a better compromise they can make -- like remove the blockade but set up some kind of inspection organization? Do you think Gaza has the right to weapons to use against Israel, and Israel should just deal with it? (I'm not being disingenuous about the last option -- maybe it's legit. Apparently Margaret Thatcher had a policy of 'acceptable violence' vis-a-vis the IRA, and that seems to have worked out.) Do you think they had a right to the blockade but just handled the actual maneuver incorrectly?
Personally I believe there shouldn't be a blockade. How can you expect a State to organize itself if they can't trade with other State actors? But I don't know how you successfully balance that with national security. I know Israel (and Egypt) offered to let the flotilla dock and have the aid carried from inside Israel or Egypt, but the activists clearly wanted to make a point about the blockade. I assume they believe there should be no blockade, but do they believe Israel shouldn't be concerned about imported weapons? I mean, what exactly is the magic solution here that makes me look like a total asshole for not feeling 100% that Israel is the worst country in the history of the planet? What makes this black + white instead of shades of horrible grey?
― Mordy, Monday, 31 May 2010 22:25 (seven years ago) Permalink
man that mpac cartoon!
― naglpuss (c sharp major), Monday, May 31, 2010 10:42 PM (40 minutes ago) Bookmark
that sounds about right, but it depends on what you're trying to achieve! that isn't clear, but i think im right in saying that the IDF boarded a bunch of other ships without bloodshed(?) tbh it looks like fuckin' amateur hour, as if they didn't expect a hostile reception. also the whole "doing it in international waters" bit was never going to be a strong look. (obviously it wouldn't have gone down this way if the IDF had waited longer, right?)
― transient truff (history mayne), Monday, 31 May 2010 22:28 (seven years ago) Permalink
Apparently Margaret Thatcher had a policy of 'acceptable violence' vis-a-vis the IRA, and that seems to have worked out.)
whatever abt anything else, that is so far off the mark
― plax (ico), Monday, 31 May 2010 22:29 (seven years ago) Permalink
could you expand?
― transient truff (history mayne), Monday, 31 May 2010 22:29 (seven years ago) Permalink
Off the mark that she had that policy? It's what I've read, is it wrong?
― Mordy, Monday, 31 May 2010 22:29 (seven years ago) Permalink
h8 thatcher and everything but n ireland was in less of a completely shitty situation in 1990 than in 1979
sidebar: the royal navy intercepted libyan shipments to the IRA
― transient truff (history mayne), Monday, 31 May 2010 22:31 (seven years ago) Permalink
I'll admit, I'm not a scholar of British/NRA history at all. Here's Sullivan discussing it:
I'm more mindful of the British example, since I lived during it. For years, IRA terrorists bombed Britain's pubs and shops and eventually nearly killed the entire cabinet in the Brighton hotel bombing. Those terrorists lived among the population in both the republic and Ulster? Did Britain bomb Ireland in response? Were republican areas in the north sealed off and pulverized as happened in Gaza? Were British casualties one hundredth of Irish casualties in response?None of this happened. Margaret Thatcher no less accepted what became known as an "acceptable level of violence" because the alternative would a) have caused domestic outrage and b) made the situation far, far worse and recruited a new army of terror. Again, one has to ask: why is Israel different?
None of this happened. Margaret Thatcher no less accepted what became known as an "acceptable level of violence" because the alternative would a) have caused domestic outrage and b) made the situation far, far worse and recruited a new army of terror. Again, one has to ask: why is Israel different?
― Mordy, Monday, 31 May 2010 22:32 (seven years ago) Permalink
Did Britain bomb Ireland in response?
this is an insane nonsequitur
― transient truff (history mayne), Monday, 31 May 2010 22:33 (seven years ago) Permalink
fuck israeli octopi
― spud webs (am0n), Monday, 31 May 2010 22:36 (seven years ago) Permalink
Again, one has to ask: why is Israel different?
its local enemies are backed by syria and iran, which pose an existential threat... there are similarities, of course, between the two situations. but there are simply no equivalents in modern british history to the all-out military offensives carried out by neighbour states against israel. the comparison is unreal on any number of levels.
― transient truff (history mayne), Monday, 31 May 2010 22:38 (seven years ago) Permalink
― Mordy, Monday, 31 May 2010 22:39 (seven years ago) Permalink
i mean, just one example of why this is retarded: the republic of ireland also helped intercept libyan arms bound for the IRA!
― transient truff (history mayne), Monday, 31 May 2010 22:40 (seven years ago) Permalink
About a good as thread as any for Eric Hoffer's famous and challopy "Israel's Peculiar Position" article from 1968.
May 26, 1968
"The Jews are a peculiar people: things permitted to other nations are forbidden to the Jews. Other nations drive out thousands, even millions of people, and there is no refugee problem. Russia did it, Poland and Czechoslovakia did it. Turkey threw out a million Greeks and Algeria a million Frenchman. Indonesia threw out heaven knows how many Chinese and no one says a word about refugees. But in the case of Israel displaced Arabs have become eternal refugees. Everyone insists that Israel must take back every single Arab.
Arnold Toynbee calls the displacement of the Arabs an atrocity greater than any committed by the Nazis.
Other nations when victorious on the battlefield dictate peace terms. But when Israel is victorious, it must sue for peace. Everyone expects the Jews to be the only real Christians in this world.
Other nations — when they are defeated — survive and recover, but should Israel be defeated it would be destroyed. Had Nasser triumphed last June he would have wiped Israel off the map and no one would have lifted a finger to save the Jews. No commitment to the Jews by any government, including our own, is worth the paper it is written on.
There is a cry of outrage all over the world when people die in Vietnam or when two Negroes are executed in Rhodesia. But when Hitler slaughtered Jews no one remonstrated with him. The Swedes, who are ready to break off diplomatic relations with America because of what we did in Vietnam, did not let out a peep when Hitler was slaughtering Jews. They sent Hitler choice iron ore and ball bearings, and serviced his troop trains to Norway.
The Jews are alone in the world. If Israel survives it will be solely because of Jewish efforts. And Jewish resources. Yet at this moment Israel is our only reliable and unconditional ally. We can rely more on Israel than Israel can rely on us. And one has only to imagine what would have happened last summer had the Arabs and their Russian backers won the war to realize how vital the survival of Israel is to American and the West in general.
I have a premonition that will not leave me; as it goes with Israel so will it go with all of us. Should Israel perish the holocaust will be upon us."
― Cunga, Monday, 31 May 2010 23:48 (seven years ago) Permalink
― Mordy, Monday, May 31, 2010 6:25 PM (49 minutes ago)
i haven't read anything that says weapons were being smuggled on the boat. israel is at fault because they stormed a boat full of civilians in order to enforce their blockade (which we all find repugnant) and, inarguably, used wildly disproportionate force after they attacked the boat. i'm not eager to wait for 'all the facts' because i literally cannot conceive of a situation in which killing a dozen or so people was necessary, whether they had big metal poles or were throwing soldiers overboard. (if there was live fire from the activists, they must have had really bad aim.)
i'm not really willing to speculate on what they should have done 'given the circumstances', because that would just legitimize the situation they were in in the first place. thankfully, i'm not running for public office in israel, because i don't have the answers either - all i care is that not enough is being done, and national security isn't a legitimate excuse for denying food, medicine, and building supplies to the innocent men, women, and children who didn't choose to be born and live there. it's hardly a balance, either - it's national security and the rights of israeli jews first, rights of israeli arabs and palestinians second
― k3vin k., Monday, 31 May 2010 23:52 (seven years ago) Permalink
The problem, as it appears to me, is that you don't know which boats are smuggling what. So you're not really contending with how Israel should secure themselves vis-a-vis smuggling. 'legitimize the situation they were in in the first place,' I assume you mean the situation of having a blockade to enforce. Btw, I agree with you -- I think the Israeli government hasn't done nearly enough for the people in Gaza. But I think national security is definitely a legitimate consideration, and I don't know what kinds of metric you can use to measure food/medicine versus national security. If you let all imports through, standards of living will improve, but history also tells us that people will die from rocket fire. I can't imagine being the person deciding to make the decision of what to do (actually, it kinda reminds me of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem), and it sounds like you don't have a perfect answer either. Anyway, that's why I'm often "defending" Israel on these threads. I don't know what the better solution is.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 1 June 2010 00:07 (seven years ago) Permalink
also I totally don't condone any kind of violence by the people on the boat, if indeed they attacked first (if you can even call it that, given people with guns were dropping out of the sky). But I especially loathe killing a dozenish of them in response, which was highly likely disproportionate to the threat they posed (ha kind of a microcosm of my reaction to most of the violence in the area). Anyway i hold the soldiers to a higher standard, because they should at least have some semblance of organization and restraint - again i am not their commanding officer so i have little interest in how i would have handled it better - my conclusion is just that their handling was not good enough
― k3vin k., Tuesday, 1 June 2010 00:11 (seven years ago) Permalink
I don't blame the soldiers. If you rappel down onto a boat where you're being shot at (we'll see if there was live fire, but there was certainly slingshots, etc) and attacked, I can't imagine how hard it is to keep perspective. There are apparently seriously injured soldiers, so clearly there was danger to them. They very likely acted disproportionately, but I don't blame that decision in the moment. I think the bigger issue was the decision to send such a small group of soldiers to the ship. At best, they totally miscalculated the response they'd get (which seems really silly, if you're going to repel down with weapons drawn, expect to need to use those weapons), at worst they just didn't consider the possibilities of escalated violence because they didn't really care if it came to that. Either way, it's definitely leadership on the mission's fault.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 1 June 2010 00:17 (seven years ago) Permalink
the video definitely changed my opinion on the 'threat they posed' - that's a pretty blood-thirsty mob
― iatee, Tuesday, 1 June 2010 00:18 (seven years ago) Permalink
I spelled rappel correctly the first time and incorrectly the second time. Weird.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 1 June 2010 00:20 (seven years ago) Permalink