John Lennon/Plastic Ono Band

This ay be the most difficult poll I'll attempt to vote in.

Mother

COOKIE

I can hardly believe I have never owned this album. "I Found Out," I suppose.

I discovered this in my parents' record collection the day I received my GCSE results, and the day of my first festival. That was 1997 and I remember how raw and visceral the emotions that struck me that summer's evening. It's so hard to pick a track, the album seemingly greater than the sum of its skeletal parts.

voted "I Found Out", as it's the one I'd put on right now if I had the album here.

I'd've said the same, but I put it on just now and it's 'Remember' that stood out most.

Which McCartney album would this go best with?

"Ram" for me, which also reminds me of the same period in my life. I had "Ram On" stuck in my head for the whole of Reading 97.

"Look at Me" is my favorite - "Love" is pretty, but "Oh My Love" from Imagine is a better take on the same basic idea. Lots of great songs here though. I love the raw starkness of this record, especially astonishing given it was produced by Phil Spector...

lol never noticed the COOKIE thing (always thought it was "okay")

uncredited guest-vocal by John Entwistle

always thought people kind of hated this album, don't know why

"Isolation". Anyone who votes for "Working Class Hero" to be banned from ILX.

because they're smarter than everyone else?

I can understand the Double Fantasy fans hating on this record. For that matter Mind Games or Walls & Bridges. Plastic Ono Band is very difficult by comparison, very raw & naked.

FWIW, I went for "Well Well Well."

there are fans of Double Fantasy?

I mean Kiss Kiss Kiss is awesome, and Watching the Wheels go round is pretty nice... but ugh so much glop on that one

The "cookie" thing is a Cookie Monster reference/sample, yeah? I always thought so.

I'd say that "glop" is a perfect word for Double Fantasy.

It's definitely John and he is definitely referencing Cookie Monster! The man had impeccable taste and timing

Yoko's songs range from pretty good to great though, and all that studio polish accentuates their subversiveness, imo.

xpost

John Lennon was apparently a giant couch potato and tv addict, for long stretches, which makes me feel better

I always thought the Cookie Monster thing was a joke for Sean.

McCartney's the opposite, I learnt from reading his book - couldn't sit still for a minute for chasing skirt, drawing fliers for crappy art projects, slinking about in disguise, etc etc. Could do with a bit of that myself.

Yes, now he likes to remind everyone that he was listening to Stockhausen and palling around with Tom Jefferson and John Adams during drafting sessions of the Declaration of Independence.

I always thought the Cookie Monster thing was a joke for Sean.

Sean wasn't born until 1975.

First time I heard "cookie" I seriously thought someone had fucked with the mp3 I downloaded.

I love the production on Double Fantasy. "Starting Over" is a great sounding single.

Anyone who votes for "Working Class Hero" to be banned from ILX.

― Wenlock & Mandelson (Tom D.), Friday, May 28, 2010 11:01 AM (7 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

because they're smarter than everyone else?

― Filmmaker, Author, Radio Host Stephen Baldwin (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn)

Because that was the "hit".

Deep album cuts only, plz. You've been warned.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

xp Working class hero wasn't even on "The john lennon collection." It's a popular album track, but hardly a "hit."

Went for "isolation" bc I enjoyed daniel johnston's cover.

Working Class Hero

Great album that I listened to a lot as a teenager. Eventually I used it up, and I've never gone back to it. Like Joy Division, for me, it belongs to a specific time in my life. I'd probably vote for "God," but I won't vote.

I think I still love "Love," though it's been a while since I've heard it.

Speaking of which, and this will be a real longshot, but is anyone familiar with a cover of "Love" from around '91 or so, came out (I think) not long after St. Etienne's cover of "Only Love Can Break Your Heart" and very much in the same vein (female singer, Soul II Soul-ish groove, etc.)? I heard it once, in a record store in Vancouver, thought it was great, didn't think to buy it, have never heard it since, have never been able to find anything about it on the web. I may have been stoned that day and imagined the whole thing. Please tell me I'm wrong.

P.S. I much prefer Double Fantasy, truth be told. I don't think Lennon made great albums as a solo artist (loads of good songs, though), but I probably still enjoy 75% of what's on there, and Yoko's stuff helps tip the scales in the right direction. (I am, oddly enough, sick of most of the singles from DF, though, and never cared much for "Woman" or "Starting Over.")

Last thought and I'll shut up, but... this might still be my favourite commentary on Lennon's primal scream phase:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qrMEEN6WxM&feature=related

(song is from National Lampoon's 1972 LP)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufK7ryaVuqU

Voted Working Class Hero just to be a contrarian fucker.

I never heard WCH until I heard the album, so I have no qualms about voting for it (not that I would anyway).

I didn't hear the Beatles apart from TV commercials until I was 20. It just wasn't in my house growing up (both father and mother too young/not big music people).

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

mine only got three votes, yet i can't fault anything in these results--flawless record if there ever was one

that's pushing it a little far, but it's a nice record, if just a tad self indulgent as was much of Lennon's solo career. I'm struggling to think of anyone else in rock who succesfully managed to make it by being so internalised and self-referential as John on songs like "Oh Yoko!" etc.

An interesting taking sides would be POB vs Imagine.

flawless record if there ever was one

I wouldn't say it's flawless, but it's certainly a flawed album that would suffer from being reorganized, cleaned up, polished or otherwise changed in any way. It's great in spite of (and often because of) its flaws.

That is correct.

I really really like "Hold On". Wish it would have placed higher.

I think the self indulgence mostly showed later. He genuinely seemd to have mined his psyche and personal history on this record, to strip himself down to the man, instead of the god of beatles. So the great pop musician takes a backseat. The songs sound intimate, and - despite the odd bit of screaming, an acceptable habit for a rock n roll singer - the emotion lightly worn.

I agree! It is perfect in its imperfection...thanks for clarifying!

How do you define existentialism and how does it work itself out on this album?

This isn't any more on par with the Beatles than Ram. Two very different sides of a coin. Both very much a distillation of its creator's mindset at the time.

Lennon is introspective, sonically naked raw, existentially terrified, solitary and frazzled.

McCartney is extroverted, escapist, maximalist, feigning wild-eyed joie de vivre through a thinly-veiled vindictiveness.

Both are war-torn, cut to ribbons. Keen to show they don't need their old family because they have a new one, which they rely on greatly.

Except for the first and last tracks, I can barely stand Ram. A lot of it's just flat out irritating.

Nah it's all great.

It's just a total vibe all the way through. The only thing I can compare it to is maybe Skylarking by XTC

I love Skylarking but Ram has just way too many annoyances. Ever been around a peer or a performer who thinks they're doing a funny bit, particular a musical bit, that's really irritating and unfortunately they just keep doing it without getting the hint? That's what it feels like when I'm listening to Ram. I know Paul's used that voice on "Monkberry Moon Delight" before, but it was usually for a line or too, which was totally fine - stretched out over an entire song, it's f-ing irritating. "Uncle Albert" has a vast array of annoying vocal effects, a candidate for the worst #1 record I've ever heard from a major recording artist. And it just goes on and on..."Heart of the Country" is pleasant if inconsequential, "Smile Away" could be fun if I'm in the right mood, but the rest is the pits.

"Too Many People" and "Back Seat of My Car" is excellent - that would make a great double A-side single. If it was 1971 and I bought that 45, I would've bought Ram the next day with high expectations, and I would've been mightily disappointed.

your ram take is so 1971

xps I didn't mean existentialism really I meant "the existential" gestures vaguely at world - which I hear JL reaching for with a bunch of words and yoko achieving far more profoundly with one

I continue to be baffled by the love for lennon at his most whatever this is - to be nice it's a well made product, his voice sounds good for maybe the last time, it clearly means a lot to people so I'm trying not to be too rude about it

I’m with you Left. Let it rip, Lennon needed to make starting over 100x instead. Captured his “whatever this is”, but with some sincerity and heart rather than pretension and teenage naivety (in its negative sense)

So a lot of people found the same album irritating in 1971 as well - so what? I'm open to hearing a more convincing argument for Ram, but I've yet to hear one - is there something more than inspiring others to make homemade whimsical recordings?

Re: Plastic Ono Band, Yoko may have steered Lennon in that direction, but it's inherently an intensely personal work. That extends to everything he struggles with or references, and how he deals with it is going to be different than anyone else - Yoko's great as well but they previously lived two very different lives with different traumas and grew through different art forms. There's a lot going on in both of their works that's theirs to deal with alone, and it only makes sense to compare the two to a point.

if good pop music isn't a convincing enough argument - I'm not the most hardcore ramhead but someone who is bothered could make a case for it being just as personal as POB if you deconstruct the various facades the mccartneys play with

POB has personal elements but it's also a performance that gives off a vibe of putting it all out there while actually holding a lot back which is a very clever art trick that also feels somewhat disingenuous to me. the famous rolling stone interview is similar in this way but a lot worse

Disclosure as concealment strategy is almost a way of life for me

Lol, A+.

With McCartney, I don't think his best solo work is necessarily the result of personal exploration. There are exceptions - my favorite album, Run Devil Run, came out of his return to music after a period of mourning, and most of his love songs are obviously about Linda, though their quality is all over the map. Otherwise, I think his best solo cuts like his singles usually come out of expert craft. Some of his more "personal" songs from his solo career can sound mawkish or disappointingly bland to me, but then again Paul has addressed this when talking about the difference between him and John. John had a much tougher upbringing and struggled with a lot, that's partly why it's been a potent inspiration for him. Paul frames that difference as saying he's grateful he's a happier person for having had less difficulty in his upbringing. So if working at a catchy tune proves more fruitful than exploring his own happy marriage, that's fine with me.

I'm not a big fan of music (or really any art form) finding ostensible value purely from voyeurism. That's one of the difficult tricks about making intensely personal art, how to make it more about exhibitionism, but I think the great ones manage to become universal even when they look deeply inward - Long Day's Journey into Night is the first thing that comes to mind, and I find a lot of that in POB. Even when he's trying to lift himself up or burying himself deep in his love (for Yoko), those are paths and rituals anyone can take with their own lives.

Actually fudged something because it's late and I need to go to bed - I didn't mean to suggest that lifting himself up and finding solace in his love was a commonality the album had with O'Neill's play, which is not something you'll find there. (However, the resentments and pain found within a damaged family is something both works do share.)

Great post birdistheword. Was talking about this point with a friend the other day, comparing Neil young and Jason Molina. Neil, even on a song as blatantly autobiographical as “don’t be denied” never seems egotistical/always touches the universal in a way Molina aspires to, but doesn’t reach with such consistency. This is my issue with POB, its spirit is too solipsistic. I find the music interesting, but I don’t like the personality which burdens itself upon it

POB has personal elements but it's also a performance that gives off a vibe of putting it all out there while actually holding a lot back which is a very clever art trick that also feels somewhat disingenuous to me.

I.e. art?

The definition of "personal" and the admiration of "personal" art strikes me as remarkable in 2023, and I post it without condescension: I didn't expect it.

I think he’s is saying that Lennon is disingenuous stating “look at me naked” when really he’s wearing a very fancy coat and it’s a bit awkward and uncomfortable.

Personal is too flimsy a word. The personal can make great art, and terrible art. It’s a matter of whether you can communicate something pure through your personhood, and that purity is often tarred by vain overindulgence. Lennon has always come off as overindulgent to me. Track number 1 on this album case in point.

Mother vs Julia

Both intensely personal, one screeches, expresses an insularity, communicating this is my experience alone and I live on this island no one may dock at (so why record it?), the other speaks outside of itself and so allows the listener to partner with the personality, considering their own relationship with their mother, consider their object of love, consider the love their actions seek

“When I cannot sing my heart, I can only speak my mind”

More singing, less speaking

expresses an insularity, communicating this is my experience alone and I live on this island no one may dock at

It does?

Could you talk to a bloke singing that outro?

Is there a thread for “songs to never sing at karaoke”?

(xp) Sure, why not?

Got more patience than me

POB's use of echo acts as the essential distancing device: I hear a series of performances by a guy almost as alien as Bowie would be.

Is there a thread for “songs to never sing at karaoke”?

Performative is a good description of this album