I Really Dislike Frank Sinatra: How alone am I?

I wouldn't give up my Miles Davis or Charles Mingus records either, and nobody ever accused those guys of being wonderful human beings.

A personal favorite album, and I can't say whether it would sway you or not, is the record he did with Antonio Carlos Jobim. The version of "I Concentrate on You" in particular doesn't sound anything like this:

Yeah, but I guess what I mean is that when he's singing a love song, I feel like it's more about him than a lover. I also feel like he's always doing his tough guy schtick, even when he's supposed to be vulnerable.

i do want to hear that late 60s thing he did that's supposed to be some bizarre attempt to be hip.

absolutely. sinatra and his ilk ... it's become music for people who don't really like music, which is a terrible shame. the westlife and robbie covers are proof incarnate of this. "ooh, westlife are the new rat pack!" no they're not, they're a bunch of chancing fucks who haven't an original idea in their heads, and sinatra would have had them shot.

"My Way" is a piece of crap (I prefer Sid Vicious' version), and most of what he recorded after 1960-1961 is rather uneven, until 1968, when his output becomes unbearable. THAT'S when the style overwhelms the substance.

The image has interfered with his art for too long. I thought you guys were smarter than this.

But consider the Rodgers & Hart material: "Little Girl Blue," "My Funny Valentine," and above all "Fly Me to the Moon." Classic, classic, classic.

And as for this--

I especially hate the song New York, New York, not because it's overplayed, but because it's the embodiment of the idiotic attitude of slicksters who drive around in their BMW convertables listening to Sinatra and thinking they're "king of the hill, top of the heap."

Doesn't this critique verge on being extramusical? Along the lines of "I can't stand [insert act here]--it's music for frat boys/people who wear ties and work in offices/people's dads/people's moms."

Ditto on the "he was an asshole" line of argument.

Yeah, but what about the music?

Dude was a great artist in his prime. But the memory of his bloated decline is what stays in people's heads.

Do you mean Watertown? It's a concept album/song cycle thingy, done in collaboration with someone from The Four Seasons (I think). It's bloddy great. For some reason it reminds me of Berlin by Lou Reed.

But I got the message about ten years ago. His work up until about '67 is mostly great...the Capitol concept albums are all masterpieces. In fact, I used to yank the chain of this dude in Memphis who called Dylan "the Shakespeare of our generation" and all that shit--I'd say, "yeah, Sinatra was far better than Elvis." 'Cause really when you think about it they kinda did the same thing, at root--reviving old music, interpreting, doing the hits of the day, all that. I like Elvis fine but Sinatra was far and away the better singer. The dude would say, "but Elvis was doing something new, Sinatra was not." Howzzat? Elvis started out doing songs that had been done before, from Crudup and Bill Monroe and others, just like Sinatra was doing his Great American Songbook shit. I mean, Junior Parker and Crudup and Monroe, don't they belong in the Great American Songbook? It's just a matter of who's reviving whom, whether you were from Hoboken or Memphis.

Anyway, I don't have anything to say one way or another to those who don't like Sinatra--fine, there are plenty of lauded people about whom I'm indifferent for my own reasons (Neil Young, Van Morrison, the Ramones, Bowie, etc.). But to say Sinatra couldn't sing--I dunno. He certainly had the respect of everyone who worked with him, he had ears, he thought about what he was doing, he was a totally conscious artist.

Nick Tosches wrote a funny book about Dean Martin--many have said he played fast and loose with the facts. I think Dean was really what Frank wanted to be, an actual tough guy and all that. And Dean could sing, he was very good. But it's just Nick Tosches takin' the piss when he said that Dean was just as much an artist as Frank. Come on. Entertaining but just a product of Tosches's desire to be an iconoclast. Listen to Sinatra with Red Norvo, that live stuff, and tell me if he didn't deserve to be ranked with great jazz singers like Holiday and Armstrong.

As for Sinatra - it's all about "It Was A Very Good Year" for me, so sober and tragic and bittersweet; I like the way he talk-sings, so theatrical. I also associate the song with Leone's "Once Upon A Time In America" for some reason, all that nostalgia and regret and age. Bought "In The Wee Small Hours" last Summer, hoping for more stuff like that, but it kinda put me to sleep. Looking at the album cover seems much more rewarding than actually listening.

all that swing shit is appaling though. bet jamie cullum's got his greedy little eye on an album of it too.

This is a ridiculous statement. Of course he was a musician, and a good one.

A few months ago I saw that one tv special where he does duets with Jobim and Ella Fitzgerald and then lets them do solo stuff, and it's so cool to see him sitting on the floor next to the stage just grinning and enjoying Ella's singing

that's one of the mysteries of art. Lou Reed is supposedly a real twat, and yet that twat wrote "Candy Says" and "Stephanie Says." The twat was responsible for "Berlin" and "Mistrial."

As for Sinatra not contributing to arrangements - well, that's ridiculous and ignorant assertion, based on the assumption that because he didn't play an instrument he just walked into a studio and sang the hell out of something. Sinatra not only sat down with Nelson Riddle and his orchestra to work out the arrangements, he also CONDUCTED the orchestra on several albums, most notably on a Dean Martin album whose name escapes me.

it's just that this seems to go some way further; it's like the most extreme case i've ever heard - how can he ache so much for something he considers fundamentally worthless? it's such a mystery.

yep he was often quite passionate about the arrangements

And the Elvis version SUCKED compared to the original.

you wanna hear extreme, listen to charles manson singing "home is where you're happy." as imperfect men making perfect art go, sinatra was but one of a million. nothing remarkable about him in that sense.

OK from my nickname you probably know how I'm going to vote here, but certainly his peers would have disagreed. Many years ago someone (the BBC?) conducted a poll of over a hundred jazz musicians, arrangers etc as to who were the greatest ever jazz singers, male and female. Guys like Miles Davis, Sonny Rollins, Quincy Jones etc were among the respondents. Sinatra not only won the male category, he scored more than 60% of all votes cast (including Miles's, obv). To put it another way, in a constituency made up of jazz greats, the combined total of votes for every other male jazz singer who ever lived was less than 2/3 of the votes cast for Sinatra.

I read the Nick Tosches book- Dino, Living High In The Dirty Business of Dreams, I believe- and it was very entertaining, but I agree with es hurt, NT was taking the piss a little bit. It was written before Rat Pack Cool came in- at the time all those guys (except Frank, I think) were viewed as jokes. I like Dino in movies- when he sings "My Rifle, My Pony and Me" with Rick Nelson(!) in Rio Bravo or especially when he sends up his own image playing a character called Dino in the underrated Kiss Me, Stupid.

I think Hurting's original objection is sort of personal rather than technical, unless I misread something. And I haven't thought about it much, but it seems to me that influence-wise, he's the number-two popular singer of the past century, after Louis Armstrong, if the wisdom I have received is correct.

which is all to say: sinatra was a fucking grandmaster of a musician.

Frank Sinatra was arguably the most important popular music figure of the 20th century, his only real rivals for the title being Bing Crosby, Elvis Presley, and the Beatles.

Horseshit

My recieved Wisdom throws Ella up there too, for what that's worth.

Stormy's recommendations are solid, and as I mentioned above, I'd also get "Francis Albert Sinatra and Antonio Carlos Jobim."

Also good: "Come Sing With Me" and "Come Fly With Me"

Just because some people (even MANY people!) like the very things one dislikes about something, doesn't invalidate their criticism. Hi, welcome to the world of subjectivity.

So do you not like cocky music/vocalists at all? Cause if you don't, then my analogy is valid. If you do like cocky vocalists, let me know the vocalist you think is the optimal level of cocky. Thanks.

you kinda have to be cocky to be a good vocalist. it's the only way to evaporate all of the tension that prevents you from being a good singer in the first place

Lol why does this hinge on what I personally like?

i don't personally give a shit, just hear for the martinis

sit next to me, find out

Granny, I love you but . . .

Just because some people (even MANY people!) like the very things one dislikes about something, doesn't invalidate their criticism. Hi, welcome to the world of subjectivity.

― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Monday, December 23, 2019 5:30 PM (three hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Lol why does this hinge on what I personally like?

― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Monday, December 23, 2019 8:56 PM (twenty-seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

still driving me insane to think about how many clearly rong posts have been made abt the legend frank sinatra

fwiw about 10 years ago i got super into 'songs for swingin' lovers' and its never let me down ... ace A++ album

yup -- it was a domino tournament album for years in my crew, well into 2003.

I was feeling this one the other night:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll0wkmVBg_c

yes! love that album so much!

I was just about to link Angel Eyes... albeit this more fragile TV version

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ub8l94E9Q5A

I’m sure there must be some good takedowns of Frankie to be found in old newspapers with older critics going “this kid’s ok but he’s clearly no Caruso”.

https://i.imgur.com/x7zTWpT.jpg

Brilliant

Never cared for him much, until I heard his "Send In The Clowns"... now boosted by the end credits of Joker.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOUrnUktTjU

It's an older meme, sir, but it checks out.

2xp

mike you gotta hear Only the Lonely

Probably my favourite musical artist, certainly if you exclude jazz and classical and maybe even if you don't.

I’m sure there must be some good takedowns of Frankie to be found in old newspapers with older critics going “this kid’s ok but he’s clearly no Caruso”.

I once a photo of Sinatra rehearsing in an old Life magazine (not sure of the date, but it was from when Sinatra first got big, so probably some time in the '40s) that's captioned with a comment about his "caterwauling that occasionally resembles a song".

my grandparents both sang opera and thought Frank was trash

Ok boomer

tbf, Frank's take on Aida didn't work, not least because he kept interjecting "Jack!" for emphasis after every third or fourth line.

I have been convinced by the sterling work on this thread and have decided I was wrong about Frank Sinatra all along and won't be listening to him again.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/Astaire%2C_Fred_-_Never_Get_Rich.jpg
Can’t sing. Can’t act. Balding. Can dance a little. Can’t scat. Not a jazz singer.

Got volume 1 of the bio mentioned upthread out of the library. It’s great, albeit lurid in places.

Producer Stephen Lipson is interviewed on The Hustle podcast and at 1:21:12 tells an amazing story about going to see a latter days Sinatra gig where Frank is so out-of-it the the orchestra has to contort itself (play silent in the loud bits because Frank doesn't know where the mic is) before collapsing in the middle of "My Way" before staggering up again like an aged punch drunk boxer who can't stop.

https://thehustle.podbean.com/e/episode-401-stephen-lipson/

tbf, Frank's take on Aida didn't work, not least because he kept interjecting "Jack!" for emphasis after every third or fourth line.

You got to use that "jack" sparingly, otherwise it loses its power. Exhibit A:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IHiBewYetI

(Surprisingly, the riff in "Smoke on the Water" adapts naturally into horn charts straight out of the big band era.)

"some day you will pay the tab I know"

Gonna have to get one of those five album cd sets, you know, the cheapie ones.

I do see capitol LPs in the charity shops, low price. I do end up wondering 'is that one of the good ones, or?'

I scored a new sealed copy of Only The Lonely from a charity shop for 1 euro a couple of weeks back. I'm really into hearing it but my player isn't. So stopped halfway through. Bummer.Had distorted it before that.
I mean fuzz guitar on The World We Knew is one thing, distorting this classic is just blasphemy surely.

The first Capitol CD's (from 1987 and 1991) are cheap and easy way of getting those albums in decent quality. (The remasters issued in 1998/2001 are notoriously awful, some of the worst examples of "remastering" by a major label.)

Also, Sinatra was apparently a good sport about Piscopo's parody - I wasn't sure if he would be because sometimes he doesn't take a joke too well. Brad Garrett opened for him for a while and at the end of one good set, he told the audience, "thank you, and please stay for Mr. Sinatra." The next day, Sinatra's manager called him in and said "Frank wants to know what you meant by that." And Garrett was like "it was a joke! Of COURSE they're going to stay for Frank, they're here for him, not for me." The manager was like "oh yeah sure....Frank doesn't want you to say that anymore."

Great Lipson interview - they're all chock full of great anecdotes - but that podcast host is the worse kind of blabbering fanboy.

I remember Piscopo saying that his Sinatra impression came from a place of respect, whereas he criticized Phil Hartman’s Sinatra for being mean-spirited and “disrespectful to Mr. Sinatra.” I always thought Hartman’s was funnier. Not by a lot, but he went places Piscopo wouldn’t touch.

The sketch of the Duets recording sessions with Adam Sandler as Bono was probably the only worthwhile thing to come out of that album.

Sorry, but this thread makes me imagine…

How Alone Am I? (Capitol, 1959; Arranged and Conducted by Hurting, assisted by Gordon Jenkins)