should i give the grateful dead a chance?

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That archive collection is incredible - so many SBDs ... better listen/DL soon, because once GD has digitized the Vault, all of those shows will be taken down.

You know, a lot of those May '77 shows match that Cornell show, although the Morning Dew and Scarlet->Fire from that show are exemplary.

― Suzy Creemcheese (SuzyCreemcheese), Tuesday, 9 August 2005 19:31 (eighteen years ago) link

so once the vault is digitzed, are they going to start charging for all the releases like Phish is doing? seems kinda shitty for a band that thrived on word of mouth and tape trading as those two have to suddenly start charging for what they once encouraged to be freely distributed.

― jonviachicago, Tuesday, 9 August 2005 19:36 (eighteen years ago) link

I think you're misguided, jonviachicago. Phish still allows audience recordings of released shows to circulate. The SBDs, however, are outlawed (because Phish has taken the time to remix/remaster the SBDs and release them in a more pristine form). Money probably has more to do w/ it, but you can still trade any audience recordings. Same goes for Grateful Dead.

― Suzy Creemcheese (SuzyCreemcheese), Tuesday, 9 August 2005 20:11 (eighteen years ago) link

Eh, didn't mean for 'misguided' to sound so snotty.

― Suzy Creemcheese (SuzyCreemcheese), Tuesday, 9 August 2005 20:12 (eighteen years ago) link

Hey fwiw, we have a giant feature in the forthcoming issue of Arthur (now at the printer) on this very topic, featuring obseravations/insights/recommendations from various folk... Ethan Miller from Comets On Fire, Geologist from Animal Collective, N. Shineywater from Brightblack Morning Light, Barry Smolin (dude who does grateful dead show "the music never stops" on kpfk), Michael Simmons, and Brant Bjork and Denise D. from Duna Records (Brant of couse was in Kyuss, and is now a solo artist), and Arthur's resident deadhead Daniel Chamberlin. Plus The Seth Man. The general answer is yes, you should give the Dead a chance, but be very careful... and try out these records first. They go into quite a bit of detail so you don't get stuck with the drek...

― JayBabcock (jabbercocky), Tuesday, 9 August 2005 20:16 (eighteen years ago) link

Oh, and RIP Jerry Garcia. 10 year anniversary.

― Suzy Creemcheese (SuzyCreemcheese), Wednesday, 10 August 2005 01:38 (eighteen years ago) link

that is amazing that all of that is available for free, but its so much to go through. can someone do a list of the essential shows to download from the archive.org site?

― amon (eman), Wednesday, 10 August 2005 02:02 (eighteen years ago) link

Find a show with a good 20-minute "Not Fade Away" or "Scarlet Begonia's/Fire on the Mountain"

i'm listening to these from the cornell 77 show mentioned above, and yeah, this band was on fire that night.

― amon (eman), Wednesday, 10 August 2005 02:32 (eighteen years ago) link

amon, some knowledgeable DeadHead friends of mine, upon hearing about the digitizing project, freaked out and quickly compiled a Best Of list - 100 essential shows from '67 ->95. I'll try to fish out their list and post it on here so you can find some good ones. General rule of thumb - '73 and '77 are the most "can't miss" years, which is funny b/c the styles are very different ('73 - incredibly loose, one drummer, great song selection, etc.; '77 - incredibly tight, more groove/dance oriented, two drummers, very tight, lots of Phil Lesh fretless bass). I prefer the '73 stuff b/c you never know what's gonna happen; but, since you're listening to that Cornell show, you know what '77 is capable of (the end of that Morning Dew, my God ...)

― Suzy Creemcheese (SuzyCreemcheese), Wednesday, 10 August 2005 02:50 (eighteen years ago) link

Again (and I know people disagree with me on this one, but I need to keep this opinion in the mix), I say DO NOT start with the live shit. Check out American Beauty or Workingman's Dead, or maybe Anthem of the Sun if you want something more out there. If you think you hate the Dead, the live shows will fulfill the worst of your expectations.

― Hurting (Hurting), Wednesday, 10 August 2005 03:07 (eighteen years ago) link

Eh, those are classics for sure. All I'll say is that I got into them through Europe '72, which seems to showcase both aspects (great songwriting and great improv). What's funny is that I was listening to nothing but Black Flag, Op Ivy, and Misfits at the time. Oh how things change.

― Suzy Creemcheese (SuzyCreemcheese), Wednesday, 10 August 2005 03:24 (eighteen years ago) link

I dunno, I guess it can happen to anyone any way. But I lived in a hippie house in college for several years and was subjected to live Dead in mind-numbing quantities and never liked any of it -- well, except for St. Stephen and Shakedown Street, which were the first songs that made me think I should check them out after all. It was only when a friend played me American Beauty that I warmed. But then, he wasn't a hippie, and I know it sounds rockist of me, but I think it might have helped me let my guard down that he was a guy whose taste I trusted.

― Hurting (Hurting), Wednesday, 10 August 2005 03:28 (eighteen years ago) link

Hurting, I can understand. I catch myself listening to some pretty silly stuff sometimes, but I'll listen to them for some little reason (ie maybe bobby was doing something particularly interesting chromatically, or Phil is following Kreutzmann, or something). AmBeauty and WDead are the studio albums I'll play for non-Dead fans (or something older).

You know what I always forget to mention when I'm talking about GD is the astonishing use of dynamic in their volume. I'm listening to a Morning Dew from '71, with 6 musicians on stage, and they get so fucking quite at moments, even while each member is playing, so fucking delicate.

― Suzy Creemcheese (SuzyCreemcheese), Wednesday, 10 August 2005 03:35 (eighteen years ago) link

I love all of the albums through American Beauty but have never got into the live stuff. After dipping into those archives a bit earlier today, and based on the live bonus tracks on the CD reissues and other live stuff I've heard I have to ask: are there any shows where they actually sang in tune?

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Wednesday, 10 August 2005 04:04 (eighteen years ago) link

I enjoy listening to live/dead. I probably wouldn't put it on myself, but sometimes my housemate does, and it's pleasant. It has this loose, ramshackle sort of feel that I appreciate.

I actively dislike the proper albums though

― seuss, Wednesday, 10 August 2005 04:15 (eighteen years ago) link

Well, Lesh just plain can't sing. He can fit into harmonies sometimes, but his voice can never be trusted. Jerry and Bobby were good ar harmonies early on, but once Jerry lost his voice/started using heroin all the time (started in the last 70s), there were usually missteps. I never really liked Bobby singing solo songs; don't mind it that much on songs like Estimated Prophet and Looks Like Rain, but usually he over does it. Jerry could sing whatever the fuck he wanted most of the time and it'd sound beautiful. Sometimes they're out of tune, sometimes they're not. It's counter-intuitive, but that's just part of the joy. Some of the best performances from the 90s are when Jerry is too zonked out to even remember the songs (had to use a teleprompter during some of the late tours), but that would make the songs that he'd nail all that much better. Hard to explain, and not something that I'd ever really expect anyone else to understand.

― Suzy Creemcheese (SuzyCreemcheese), Wednesday, 10 August 2005 04:26 (eighteen years ago) link

I am a massive fan, but even to this day the bad singing on many live shows is something that ... well, we COULD have had high times but I won't abide.

― Stormy Davis (diamond), Wednesday, 10 August 2005 04:51 (eighteen years ago) link

I seriously fucking hate them for playing that awful "Good Lovin'" all the damn time too.

― Stormy Davis (diamond), Wednesday, 10 August 2005 04:53 (eighteen years ago) link

I finally broke down and got into them via live stuff tho. Specifically, the trio of Dick's Picks 4, the Mickey & the Heartbeats stuff - Acid Test or whatever it's called, and Standing On the Corner -- a boot of that '66 show which ended up on the Golden Road box. That did the trick. I was a convert.

― Stormy Davis (diamond), Wednesday, 10 August 2005 04:55 (eighteen years ago) link

I just remembered that the first Dead album I bought (or even heard really) was Grayfolded. I haven't listened to that in years but I think I'll pull it out again now.

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Wednesday, 10 August 2005 04:58 (eighteen years ago) link

ha, you know, I actually bought Grayfolded when it first came out as a single disc ... and it contained that little card that you had to send in with payment to get the second disc. And I never sent it in! and i think I've since lost the card. So I've still never heard teh second disc.

― Stormy Davis (diamond), Wednesday, 10 August 2005 05:04 (eighteen years ago) link

That's weird, mine came with both.

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Wednesday, 10 August 2005 05:06 (eighteen years ago) link

This thing looks fairly amazing!

Man, I didn't even know about that. Nor did I know a new Dick's Picks was out .... from '71! Man it's so crazy how they crank those suckers out; if you don't check back often you wouldn't even know that like 5 Dicks Picks had come out since you last browsed the site.

― Stormy Davis (diamond), Wednesday, 10 August 2005 05:06 (eighteen years ago) link

Oh, nevermind. I re-read your post and I see what you mean. I'm listening to it now and all of that noodling is turning my brain to noodles.
xpost

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Wednesday, 10 August 2005 05:07 (eighteen years ago) link

god, that '71 disc has some Pigpen composition I've never heard called "Empty Pages". wonder what that's all about. Also, a "Brokedown Palace"!! You can never hear too many "Brokedown Palace"s

― Stormy Davis (diamond), Wednesday, 10 August 2005 05:10 (eighteen years ago) link

It filled my heart w/ happiness when David Berman mentioned Grayfolded in the Pfork interview. Always been a favorite of mine. For some reason, a lot of GD fans haven't even heard it.

And one Broke-Down Palace I don't like is Will Oldham's cover of it. I was excited to hear that he was doing it, but I wasn't a big fan of the execution, esp. the second half. Oh well.

― Suzy Creemcheese (SuzyCreemcheese), Wednesday, 10 August 2005 05:21 (eighteen years ago) link

I'm listening to DP 26 right now ... opens with an acoustic "Dupree's"/"Mountains of the Moon" .. oh baby..

― Stormy Davis (diamond), Wednesday, 10 August 2005 05:23 (eighteen years ago) link

I think I sent this track to like Chaki and Ian before we all got all YSI'd out, but for all my fellow brethren and sistren here's an insane "Cream Puff War" from '67 -- nine minutes of amphetamine-fueled Jerry blowing his brains out, total punk rock--

http://s57.yousendit.com/d.php?id=1H1UAEBDB90GCBSMTALVHSLK4

― Stormy Davis (diamond), Wednesday, 10 August 2005 05:36 (eighteen years ago) link

I'm surprised that Dick's Picks hasn't released anything from the Acid Tests, from '65. I guess the sound quality would be horrendous, but whatev.

― Suzy Creemcheese (SuzyCreemcheese), Wednesday, 10 August 2005 05:39 (eighteen years ago) link

One of my favorite things about the Grateful Dead was from this old Richard Meltzer piece where he was talking about having had a conversation with Jerry Garcia. Somehow, they got on the subject of guitar strings and Garcia says to him, "Some people really have the string trip together."

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Wednesday, 10 August 2005 05:58 (eighteen years ago) link

I'll try to fish out their list and post it on here so you can find some good ones.

that would be great, thanks suzy.

― amon (eman), Wednesday, 10 August 2005 11:09 (eighteen years ago) link

Sure thing, amon. I've got a busy day today, but when everything calms down, i'll track down the list and post it here. They tried to give each era its due, but giving special attention to the special periods (ie late 70s)

― Suzy Creemcheese (SuzyCreemcheese), Wednesday, 10 August 2005 13:16 (eighteen years ago) link

but his voice can never be trusted.
But can his bass playing be trusted?

― k/l (Ken L), Wednesday, 10 August 2005 13:21 (eighteen years ago) link

But of course! I don't think he'd ever played bass before he joined GD (was more intereested in the carnival aspect of the Acid Tests and probably wanted to check out that scene, I'd suspect), but he had a strong background in AGarde music (w/ Luciano Berio). I think that it took him about 3 years to be a good bassist, and 4-5 more years to unlearn how a bassist plays rock music, and from about '72 on, he had his own particular style. Some of his bass lines still amaze me - he never goes particularly fast (in fact, almost never goes fast), but his lines are so fucking quirky.

OK, the list forthcoming.

― Suzy Creemcheese (SuzyCreemcheese), Wednesday, 10 August 2005 19:20 (eighteen years ago) link

Instead of digging for the Top 100 shows, here is a list of the Top 25 shows. A couple have been taken off Archive.org b/c they've been officially released in the in-between time. Ta da:

02/14/68
02/28/69
02/18/71
04/29/71
08/06/71
08/27/72
09/21/72
02/09/73
02/15/73
06/10/73
11/11/73
11/17/73
02/24/74
06/18/74
06/28/74
10/19/74
10/20/74
02/26/77
05/07/77
05/08/77
05/09/77
06/09/77
07/08/78
06/30/85
09/18/87
07/17/89
10/09/89
03/29/90
09/10/90
09/10/91

― Suzy Creemcheese (SuzyCreemcheese), Wednesday, 10 August 2005 19:47 (eighteen years ago) link

Hurting, would you be willing to play in a rhythm section with Phil?

― k/l (Ken L), Wednesday, 10 August 2005 19:51 (eighteen years ago) link

xpost - 25 is more than enough. thx again

― amon (eman), Wednesday, 10 August 2005 21:25 (eighteen years ago) link

"rhythm" section

― Hurting (Hurting), Wednesday, 10 August 2005 23:37 (eighteen years ago) link

Some of the two-drummer stuff does really groove though, esp. the studio stuff.

― Hurting (Hurting), Wednesday, 10 August 2005 23:37 (eighteen years ago) link

1976 = the dead's most underrated year? just been listening to a show from July 17th 1976 in SF, and there's an aboslutely mindblowing comes a time>drums>other one>eyes of the world>other one jam that's as far out as anything from 72 or 77

― Ward Fowler (Ward Fowler), Wednesday, 24 August 2005 19:57 (eighteen years ago) link

man that top 25 list seems well screwy too - not a single Europe 72 show? the last night at the lyceum might well be my v. fave dead show

― Ward Fowler (Ward Fowler), Wednesday, 24 August 2005 20:04 (eighteen years ago) link

it's a list of shows that were up on Archive.org, not an overall list

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 24 August 2005 22:37 (eighteen years ago) link

Yeah, I think the lack of Euro '72 shows has to do with what GD Corp is gonna release soon (ie they've forced Archive.org to stop sharing them). Honestly, if I'd made that list, there would be a few less '77s and '74s, replaced by some '76s and 90s stuff.

'76 was a strange year, though. Caught between two styles for the most part. Although I know it's from 1975, a lot of '76 stuff reminds me of "One from the Vault" - sounds great but a little cautious.

― Suzy Creemcheese (SuzyCreemcheese), Thursday, 25 August 2005 00:34 (eighteen years ago) link

One thing I will say, there is nothing else anywhere in music that is remotely like the way Dead fans talk about the Dead. Maybe Bach fanatics.

― Hurting (Hurting), Thursday, 25 August 2005 03:19 (eighteen years ago) link

or wine connoisseurs?

― amon (eman), Thursday, 25 August 2005 03:37 (eighteen years ago) link

nothing else anywhere in music

Actually, it also reminds me of baseball fans.

― Hurting (Hurting), Thursday, 25 August 2005 03:41 (eighteen years ago) link

The only people more fanatic are fans of baseball-playing musicians

BEHOLD! NY YANKEE BERNIE WILLIAMS AND ... THE JOURNEY WITHIN!

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00009VGX9.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

― Suzy Creemcheese (SuzyCreemcheese), Thursday, 25 August 2005 14:37 (eighteen years ago) link

Bernie sLaYz

― Suzy Creemcheese (SuzyCreemcheese), Thursday, 25 August 2005 18:38 (eighteen years ago) link

The way people talk about the Dead is a big part of the fun IMO -- books and books with reviews of every show they ever played, all the small details examined to within an inch of their lives. Definitely comparable to baseball stats people.

― Mark (MarkR), Thursday, 25 August 2005 18:52 (eighteen years ago) link

I think the difference is quantitative, not qualitative. The reason deadheads can pore over so many details is that there are 30 years of recorded and documented shows to pore over. So yeah, you can talk about endless different versions of eyes of the world or dark star or even me and my uncle. You can talk about trends in setlists and length of shows and when the band changed their positions on stage.

But it's not like Dead fans are MORE rapturous than any other really rabid fans, at least the ones I know (including myself).* I guess baseball is the best analogy. It's not that baseball fans love baseball more than basketball fans love basketball, it's just that there is a lot more data produced in a baseball game for the fan to pore over.

― Scott CE (Scott CE), Thursday, 25 August 2005 18:57 (eighteen years ago) link

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