Rome - New HBO show

I'm not shitting you guys.

Why did I dream this and what does it say about me? Ugh.

first episode was okay!

I'm glad Niobe is dead, in a way - the baby plot and the Servilia vs. Julie Cooper plot were, by far, the weakest elements of the series. If you want to portray Roman women, wonderful, but don't stick them with awful, catty side-plots.

Since the Atia/Servilia relationship is treated as the cause of many major events, most notably the murder of Caesar (but it's also why Caesar leaves Rome to chase after Pompey, as I recall), it's hard to consider it a "side-plot". And, although I suppose I don't really want to go down this road, I'm not sure why Servilia's and Atia's sarcastic and subtle grabs for power are considered "catty", but Caesar's, Anthony's, and Cato's aren't -- oh, except for the penis thing.

I think the problem had more to do with Cooper's [is that her name? Atia's] uninspired take on the role, and the ridiculous lesbian bits.

Anyway, I'm pretty happy with that ending, and season 2 will be interesting. Octavian (who started out too old and will surely soon be too young) vs. Anthony vs. Brutus should be interesting. Don't know what they'll do with Vorenus or Pullo, though. But Cleopatra should come back, no?

Vorenus and Pullo have allegiances to Marc Anthony and Octavian - so they'll start out fighting alongside them against the conspirators, and then against each other when the two split.

One of the main points of the series was, it seemed, to show how male and female power worked in different ways (in Rome, or at least in their Rome). Servilia ends up being the most powerful person in Rome: She's the only one who gets exactly what she wants (and what she wanted was something audacious and difficult to procure). (I suppose Pullo does too, but he leaves Rome.)

Now, of course, Season 2 is going to have her power come apart, since after all Atia, Octavia, and Augustus do very well for themselves, and Brutus not so much.

The women should have been more than Days of Our Lives cutouts.

Anthony more than any other character came off as an American, and I really didn't like him for it.

Or, to put it another way: The men are ridiculous cutouts as well if they're not just presented as ciphers onto which historical events are mapped (Brutus, Caesar); realistic characters and character motivations are simply not what this show is about.

Caesar is conflicted - we see him from both sides, Machiavellian dictator and hero of the proles.

Pullo and Vorenus are brilliantly written - certainly not 'realistic' but entirely believable and enjoyable.

Anthony is an archetype, the nefarious playboy (but redeemed by his character's loyalty to comrades and the acting), and I don't think you're supposed to like him (he had gladiator whores, and all). He actually struck me as a swash-buckling British aristocrat/bad boy than American.

Even Timon the Jew was well-written and acted.

Brutus was the worst actor and probably had his character undermined by the inanity of Servilia's subplot. I get the concept behind what they did - look at how this traditionally female dramatic plot can tie into this traditionally male dramatic plot, look at how little things can bring down the biggest empires, etc. - that doesn't mean the writers succeeded. All of the male characters (Brutus) aside were well-written, believable, well-acted. Most of the women were (Niobe included - she struck the right note of a commoner entering into society).

Atia and Servilia, on the other hand, were consigned to soap opera conniving. And it was boring, and it was badly done. It was too bad that they occupied such a large (and unnecessary) part of the show. We didn't need Atia's social striving (we got the hint after the first episodes, and her kids were way better), and Servilia's a woman scorned role was insulting.

None of the characters were interesting, however, or well drawn, or anything like that. And that's a good thing! Vorenus's character isn't what's interesting about him, what interesting is what the show's creators got to talk about or show through him. He got to be a mouthpiece for ideas about Roman gods, or Roman duty, of this tradition which is alien to ours (and which might have been alien to actual Rome's, but which, it is being argued by the show, is what was claimed as "what a Roman thinks", or something along those lines).

I get the concept behind what they did - look at how this traditionally female dramatic plot can tie into this traditionally male dramatic plot, look at how little things can bring down the biggest empires, etc. - that doesn't mean the writers succeeded.

But I disagree with this. The entire series is the creators showing you what they're thinking -- there is no other grounds to "succeed" on. If you got the concept, then they succeeded. That is where the entertainment and interest comes from.

If the show had succeeded as, say, blount describes the Sopranos as succeeding, then I wouldn't have been interested, just like I have no interest in the Sopranos.

The entire series is the creators showing you what they're thinking -- there is no other grounds to "succeed" on.
Of course there are. If that's all narrative TV/cinema was, we could get by with one-page summaries and be done. There's drama and there's acting and there's dialogue and everything else.

anyway yeah i love this show, one of the only shows ever that i've "followed" as it was on. but it's carnivale caliber, not soporanos or deadwood or 6 ft under caliber. the bits i've liked are the comments on either earlier caesars (brutus being a feeb, very unshakespearean) or the slightly clumsy riffs on current politix ("i've never actually tortured anyone...we have specialists").

i was daydreaming the other day about an "adventures of posca" spinoff, boo hoo.

British made TV show in not being as good as American made TV show non-shockah!

We may accuse Suetonius of sexism by the light of our times, but underneath the contempt he has for people like Livia, lies perhaps, the reality that intrigue was one of the only avenues of influence open to women in a virile culture like that of the Romans.

I'm not arguing that's the only way a tv show could work; I'm arguing that it's the only thing in Rome that really works, and that everything else only works enough to let the concepts shine, and doesn't work so well that it obscures the shiny concepts.

I never felt Vorenus and Pullo were believable characters having believable conversations, but I did generally feel like they were believable concepts bringing up interesting or fun concepts. The whole "Pullo tells Vorenus about the clitoris" scene comes off as unbelievable -- dude's been in Caesar's army for ten years, which is depicted as being filled with blunt men who talk about sex and the body constantly, surely it would have come up before -- but as far as a conversation between someone "proper" and someone "earthy", in a time before widespread sex ed, it's a pretty clever concept.

...

Roman custom doesn't dictate that Vorenus has to marry Niobe's sister now, does it?

I'm going to miss Indira Varma.

I felt pretty bad when Niobe died, but I think they had to do it. Lucius Vorenus is going to be feeling really guilty in future episodes about his professional screwup in letting Caesar get killed, which would eventually grew tiresome, so they had to mirror that with the more resonant private screwup/loss.

I'm on the side of those who thought the catty intrigue ended up a little on the soap opera side- a few extra arched eyebrows and instead of Ancient Rome, we would have been in Viejo Mexico. Contrast that with Caesar's power plays, which I pretty much bought hook, line and sinker. Usually I have my radar up and think "haha, that actor thinks he can puff up his chest and glint his eye and pontificate and I'm going to believe he is a powerful man. I'm sorry, but life isn't like that, baby" but in this case the writers and especially the actor really pulled it off.

I thought Vorenus/Pullo were great characters, an excellent good cop/bad cop team of one thinking/controlling/repressed guy and one lusty/impulsive/acting out guy. The grumpy straight arrow that is Lucius Vorenus is a type that is near and dear to my heart.

No, that sort of thing I generally find sad and tedious (which means I've found it somewhat difficult to get excited about Rome the actual historical empire, which was after all all about that sort of shenanigans). If it's done in the service of a cleverly turned out plot (P.G. Wodehouse/"Scott Tenerman Must Die" style) then I'll put up with it.

In general hour-long tv shows haven't interested me.

anyway, pretty good, I was hoping ceaser would be around for longer though. bring on cleopatra I say.

Comedy replies are OK as long as I get a serious one too. Thanks in advance.

http://www.hbo.com/rome/episode/season1/episode10.html