jenny mccarthy wants your kid to get measles: autism, vaccines, and stupid idiots

a little drunk atm & im not that great @ talking about this stuff in a clear & considered way but: i have a lot of sympathy for people that are skeptical about the "medical establishment" & are interested in finding non-invasive non-traditional methods for treating disease. there are certainly multiple instances where the medical establishment has failed its duties & i think (in general) the current structure for health care delivery is deeply, deeply flawed.

@ the same time its incredibly frustrating - especially as sum1 who's entire future is tied up with health care research - that thoughtful, engaged ppl are ready to dismiss any and all medical advances and treatments as "the same". as poorly structured/incentivized/administrated as the current model is there is no excuse for administering placebos in place of real vaccines (i mean wtf) or ignoring proven, thoroughly researched treatments.

anyway if ppl are still interested in reading abt some of the challenges of finding & modeling group immunity thresholds this article is a little jargon-y but good imo.

This ILX health professions student has personally watched a patient nearly die from a massive caffeine overdose caused by twice-an-hour coffee enemas. I detest alt.medicine with a passion.

I'm embarrassed that a PhD in English literature is used to indicate "educated." Together they foretell a troubling future.

But I'm hesitant to disparage her or her supporters because the antecedent to this opinion is widespread. Scientific education in the United States is dismal therefore no one should act surprised when this ludicrous argument is motivated. Furthermore, the illiteracy on this thread should also be noted and checked.

If I were the so-called benevolent dictator I'd establish strong disincentives for my people to pursue the humanities in favor of strong incentives to purse math and science. In the last decade, the humanities have exploded; the ICES reported there’s been a 25% increase in degrees awarded in both the humanities and social sciences. In this same time period, both engineering and physical science (with the exception of a small increase in biology) were stagnant and formal science declined.

― 3WNUet52, Thursday, 29 April 2010 17:51 Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

This is some bs - argue about the science of vaccinations by all means but citing poor literacy and claiming an education in English literature is not an education is plain wrong. Many pro-vaccine people can't spell. Many people with PhDs in Literature have solid basic scientific knowledge and agree with vaccination.

"strong incentives to purse math and science" = you fail at science, by your own standards.

There's an argument to be made about the imbalance of science vs arts/humanities education but I don't think the anti-vac hysteria is necessarily a symptom of that.

On a wider issue I do think the scientific community has a huge problem getting people to place evidential peer-reviewed scientific research above anecdotal evidence and hysteria, whether it be about vaccines or climate change or alternative medicines or whatever.

On a wider issue I do think the scientific community has a huge problem getting people to place evidential peer-reviewed scientific research above anecdotal evidence and hysteria, whether it be about vaccines or climate change or alternative medicines or whatever.

yeah, and from what I've seen just because something has been peer-reviewed is no guarantee of its scientific...validity either. seems that there's a ton of bogus journals and fly by night operations out there that exist to validate quacks.

http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shortsharpscience/2010/02/whooping-cough-evolves-to-esca.html

^This will make it difficult to determine how much of the rise in pertussis is down to these strains evading the vaccine and how much is down to a drop in vaccinations.

I can't see anyone pushing to bring the whole cell vaccination back after the scare stories and litigation of the 70s and 80s.

allopathic medicine

(maby xposts) u shouldn't really use this term, it's a bogus coinage only used by alt-med crazies.

uhhhh

in the states it's sometimes used to distinguish between the two medical degrees you can get, MD (allopathic) and DO (osteopathic)

seems like even that is a controversial usage mostly practised by the alt-med camp (full disclosure i only just read that on wikipedia so what do i know)

yeah i guess it is? weird, cuz when i was applying for med school, the All Med Schools in US OMNIBUS or w/e I had was explicitly divided into Allopathic and Osteopathic schools

i watched that episode of frontline just now. that phd lady is a total moron! 'no one gets polio anymore,' 'why do i have to vaccinate an infant against a sexually transmitted disease' (hepatitis B is not *just* an std!!!) etc etc

like how does she feel ok holding herself out as an expert on this topic without bothering to learn about simple mathematical models of how diseases spread/don't spread in populations?? bleh

Oh FFS
If autism does not affect your family now, it will. If something does not change—and change soon—this is almost a mathematical certainty.

cracking up at the Amazing Randi tbh

This book provides a terrifying insight into what has been happening behind the scenes as efforts redouble to silence Dr. Wakefield . . . It is a wake-up call to those who think (he) is anything other than a modern day hero fighting for all of our children." ----Robert Rodriguez and Elizabeth Avellain, Troublemaker Studios, Austin, Texas

i guess machete is gonna chop up some guy working for the cdc or something, huh

The defense of Wakefield as some kind of savior of the children is particularly obnoxious given that he was sanctioned for, among other things, performing unnecessary colonoscopies on children without consent, causing serious injury to at least one kid - http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/12/an_autistic_child_pays_the_price_of_andr.php.

my friend and i often marvel over how jenny mccarthy's kid could have made it to kindergarten before anyone noticed he was autistic but the other day it hit us she lived with jim carrey so how the hell would you know the diff

Sunny's quite right there.

Something very random that just occurred to me -- are anti-vax folks who have pets like dogs and cats also anti-vax for them too?

my g/f works at a vet clinic - you'd be amazed!

Mistrust of medical doctors goes back a long, long way, as does mistrust of scientists and their motives or judgement. The anti-vaccine movement is just another manifestation of this long standing undercurrent in society.

One difficulty here is that humans are both fallible and delusion-prone. Consequently, there are plenty of true anecdotes that illustrate times when both medecine and science have failed, or fallen prey to delusion. Anyone who chooses to focus on these failures and delusions, instead of the many successes, can justify their cynicism and mistrust. Nor will the critics and cynics have any useful yardstick by which to measure any particular therapy or medical practise, since all the trustworthy yardsticks will be discredited by their association with those "error-prone" scientific methods.

Then it is just a matter of one's emotional reactions taking over.

My vet has told me that, with a few exceptions, if your cats are strictly indoors, then in her opinion vaccinations are pretty much optional. Only if they have a lot of interactions outside with other cats does she recommend a full spectrum of regular vaccinations.

http://tallguywrites.livejournal.com/148012.html

I see, Ned, that you are unfamiliar with the concept of the homeopathic vet.

And for that I am glad.

One the one hand, homeopathic vets make me worry for the pets' health. On the other hand, it is the only place I have seen a custom painting of a horse and its chakras.

http://www.patinkas.co.uk/Chakra_System_of_Animals/a_Horse_Chakras_Pic.jpg

Oh look, now you don't have to go.

Thread connections

the gf told me about this one lady who had her cat on some crazy raw food diet with no vaccinations. it had worms and all sorts of other things going on - and she herself also got salmonella from sampling her cat's food.

lol/smh @ horse chakras

finally I have the information I need to take down my nemesis Das Pferd

I drive past a place on the way to work that I believe is a pet acupuncturist. Um, yeah.

See that's why i want a pet porcupine. Think of all the pet acupuncturist bills I'd be saving on.

Horse chakras!?

"alternate Heart site"

oh Christ, my old neighbour used to go to someone to do reiki on her cats. I'm still not quite sure what that involves but there are some 'interesting' websites about it if you google 'reiki for cats'. Anyway when the cat died this woman apparently was still able to do reiki on it once it was buried, and tell the owner that the cat was ok spiritually.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_model

loooooooool

Flashbacks to our cat whisperer discussion there.

Cat Whisperer, his green eyes implored, take me home.

lol

Review of Andrew Wakefield's new book, which will no doubt be given the licence-to-print-money description of "CONTROVERSIAL".

Henry got his 6 month shots today (a month and a half late) and the first thing I said when I saw him was 'aww you're all autistic now!'

holy shit @ the pullquote in the wakefield review -

"Maternal instinct... has been a steady hand upon the tiller of evolution; we would not be here without it."

great New Scientist piece: http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20627606.100-living-in-denial-why-sensible-people-reject-the-truth.html?full=true

echoes much of what Plasmon wrote upthread.

...Similarly, global warming, evolution and the link between tobacco and cancer must be taken on trust, usually on the word of scientists, doctors and other technical experts who many non-scientists see as arrogant and alien.

Many people see this as a threat to important aspects of their lives. In Texas last year, a member of a state committee who was trying to get creationism added to school science standards almost said as much when he proclaimed "somebody's got to stand up to experts".

It is this sense of loss of control that really matters. In such situations, many people prefer to reject expert evidence in favour of alternative explanations that promise to hand control back to them, even if those explanations are not supported by evidence (see "Giving life to a lie").

All denialisms appear to be attempts like this to regain a sense of agency over uncaring nature: blaming autism on vaccines rather than an unknown natural cause, insisting that humans were made by divine plan, rejecting the idea that actions we thought were okay, such as smoking and burning coal, have turned out to be dangerous...

some Not Really Getting It posts in the comments section.

Martin McKee, an epidemiologist at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine who also studies denial, has identified six tactics that all denialist movements use.

1. Allege that there's a conspiracy. Claim that scientific consensus has arisen through collusion rather than the accumulation of evidence.
2. Use fake experts to support your story. "Denial always starts with a cadre of pseudo-experts with some credentials that create a facade of credibility," says Seth Kalichman of the University of Connecticut.
3. Cherry-pick the evidence: trumpet whatever appears to support your case and ignore or rubbish the rest. Carry on trotting out supportive evidence even after it has been discredited.
4. Create impossible standards for your opponents. Claim that the existing evidence is not good enough and demand more. If your opponent comes up with evidence you have demanded, move the goalposts.
5. Use logical fallacies. Hitler opposed smoking, so anti-smoking measures are Nazi. Deliberately misrepresent the scientific consensus and then knock down your straw man.
6. Manufacture doubt. Falsely portray scientists as so divided that basing policy on their advice would be premature. Insist "both sides" must be heard and cry censorship when "dissenting" arguments or experts are rejected.

think I have seen these tactics used outside of denialist movements tbh

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129198775&ps=cprs

my chiro, suggests that forceps harm the brain and push up against the skull, therefore, toxins get stuck,,, toxins from the vaccines, get stuck and cant get out and harm the brain,...???? sounds accurate to me... not to mention the ultrasounds constantly monitoring... 30 years ago they did not use ultrasound the same ...during pregnancy... comments please!!! just the facts

sounds accurate to me!

it's a, pretty compelling argument... she,..? makes