The Ramones : Classic Or Dud

Can't quite figure out whether that's a putdown of the Clash, or the Ramones, or neither, or both - and I'm not even European !

They became an institution for a reason, Mike. They admittedly worked the gimmick angle (certainly no more so than, say, the much-fawned over White Stripes), but I risk flogging the very obvious point by saying they did it *FIRST*! Respect is due. As for frankness, I don't believe anyone is saying their later work is as significant as their seminal first few albums.

To me this is so far wide of the mark that it completely misses what early-Ramones are all about. The analogies with Brill building and early 60's girlpop songcraft has been trotted out so often wrt The Ramones that it's tempting to dismiss it out-of-hand. There is some truth in it though - I can hear the Shangri-La's, say, in I Wanna Be Your Boyfriend or Babysitter. That's not to say that this automatically makes the Ramones good, of course.

But they're better than good - they're masters. Their best songs are great because they are lean and simple - there's nothing that shouldn't be there. Couple this with a simple melodic hook(nothing fancy - 4 chords max. and another 2 for the middle 8) and a propulsive beat, and you have something irresistable. Add some elements of The Ramones 'own world' imagery (pick from : NY street images, retards, 'nam casualties, glue, girls)and you have genius.

Take "Glad to see you Go" from Leave Home - straight into a Beach Boys/Eddie Cochrane morphed melody and just listen to the way that the song shifts gear slightly on lines 3 and 4 of the verse as Tommy closes the high-hat a touch under the chords and melody. The shift into the chorus is sublime and the sheer rush as it comes back to the last verse from the middle 8 ("I need somebody good, I need a miracle") is like a ride in the space shuttle - on the outside.

Take "Rockaway Beach" - another point on the curve linking "Summer in the City", " Dancing in the Street" and "Baby on more Time". Again - great chorus, great lyrics ("Chewin out a rhythm on my bubblegum") and a sense of PLACE. In less than 3 minutes you feel exactly what it's like to be a teenager in baking hot NY - and you feel it every single time you hear it. That's great songwriting, Pinefox.

Rockaway, Glad..., Listen to My Heart, 53rd and 3rd, You Should Never Have Opened That Door are equals of "Please, Please Me", "California Girls", "My Generation" ..... the list goes on....if you can look past the "punk" thing which is really a red herring as far as The Ramones are concerned.

I guess it all depends on what you look for in a song - they're not Burt or Jimmy Webb, but they tell a story, crank up the adrenaline, and make their own world for 3 mins for EVERY SINGLE TRACK on the first 4 albums. That's classic.

I am still not particularly convinced about the overall point. In fact, come to think of it, I'm not at all convinced. But to be reasonable about this, I'm going to have to leave it till I've listened to the Ramones again.

But, Dr.C makes such a good case for Da Ramones that I'm thinking of checking them out again.

But part2, Jason makes a very interesting point that almost gets buried: the puritanism of much punk. I feel it's a key to why I don't like much of the stuff (although most of the time I think of punk as anorexic - no bottom ;) Will go up on the mountain and meditate on this insight.

Which kind of explains why I like so few American bands. Seems that whatever genre they work in, there's always that wide Rock streak that suffuses it all and kind of obliterates whatever else they're trying to do.

OH-OH-I-LOVE-HER-SO-O-OH.

So I went to see what I thought was going to be a bunch of dodgy old punks on Saturday night and ended up seeing a dodgy old Scottish Ramones (this is a good thing).

Then I told my son (Mark, 5 and three quarters) that "Brian's band sound like the Ramones" and his jaw dropped and he said "THE RAMONES? REALLY? COOL!" and I think it's cool as fuck that my kid thinks it's cool that someone his dad knows is in a band that sounds a wee bit like The Ramones.

Then I listened to It's Alive this morning on the way to work and it reasserted itself as not only the best live album ever, but possibly one of the BEST ANYTHINGS EVER!

C.L.A.S.S.I.C.

Anyway, Weird Tales of the Ramones, anyone got it yet and want to tell me why I really need to buy it regardless of what I already own?

This is looking pretty classic:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ramones-Its-Alive-1974-1996/dp/B000EGEVZK

Finally, the It's Alive footage on DVD, with about, er, 100 other tracks!

DVD1:
-------
CBGB New York, NY (9/15/74)
Now I Wanna Sniff Some Glue
I Don't Wanna Go Down To The Basement
Judy Is A Punk

Max’s Kansas City New York, NY (4/18/76)
I Wanna Be Your Boyfriend
53rd and 3rd

The Club Cambridge, MA (5/12/76)
Chain Saw

Max’s Kansas City New York, NY (10/8/76)
Havana Affair
Listen To My Heart

My Father’s Place Roslyn, NY (4/13/77)
I Remember You
Carbona Not Glue

CBGB New York, NY (6/11/77)
Blitzkrieg Bop
Sheena Is A Punk Rocker
Beat On The Brat
Now I Wanna Sniff Some Glue
Rockaway Beach
Cretin Hop
Oh Oh I Love Her So
Today Your Love, Tomorrow The World

The Second Chance Ann Arbor, MI (6/26/77)
Rockaway Beach
Carbona Not Glue

The Ivanhoe Theater Chicago, IL (7/6/77)
Pinhead
Suzy Is A Headbanger

The Armadillo Austin, TX (7/14/77) Early Show
Commando
I Wanna Be Your Boyfriend

The Armadillo Austin, TX (7/14/77) Late Show
Now I Wanna Be A Good Boy
53rd & 3rd
Today Your Love, Tomorrow The World

Liberty Hall Houston, TX (7/15/77)
Loudmouth
I Remember You
Gimme Gimme Shock Treatment

Liberty Hall Houston, TX (7/16/77)
Oh Oh I Love Her So
Today Your Love, Tomorrow The World

Don Kirshner’s Rock Concert L.A., CA (8/9/77)
Loudmouth
Judy Is A Punk
Glad To See You Go
Gimme Gimme Shock Treatment

The Camera Mart Stages New York, NY (9/3/77)
Swallow My Pride
Pinhead
Sheena Is A Punk Rocker

It’s Alive, The Rainbow Theatre London (12/31/77)
Blitzkrieg Bop
I Wanna Be Well
Glad To See You Go
You're Gonna Kill That Girl
Commando
Havana Affair
Cretin Hop
Listen To My Heart
I Don't Wanna Walk Around With You
Pinhead
Do You Wanna Dance?
Now I Wanna Be A Good Boy
Now I Wanna Sniff Some Glue
We're A Happy Family

Bonus features:
- Dee Dee and Joey - The Beginning (Interview)
- Tommy - Forest Hills High School (Interview)
- Danny Fields - Revelations (Interview)
- Joey & Dee Dee - Influences (Interview)
- Joey & Danny - Artistic Growth (Interview)
- Violence? (Interview)
- What is Punk? (Interview)
- Tommy - How I learned to play drums and we got a record deal (Interview)
- Dee Dee - Coffee And Cigarettes (Interview)
- Johnny - Hard To Stop (Interview)
- Argentina - The First Time (Interview)
- Mandagsborgen (Interview)
- Sha Na Na Shenanigans (Interview)
- It's Not My Place (In The 9 To 5 World) (Video)
- Somebody Put Something In My Drink (Rare Video) (Rough Cut)
- Photo Galleries (Also Ramones fans got chance to send photos taken by them to the DVD).

DVD2:
-------
Musikladen Bremen, Germany (9/13/78)
Rockaway Beach
Teenage Lobotomy
Blitzkrieg Bop
Don't Come Close
I Don't Care
She's The One
Sheena Is A Punk Rocker
Cretin Hop
Listen To My Heart
I Don't Wanna Walk Around With You
Pinhead

The Old Grey Whistle Test London (9/19/78)
Don't Come Close
She's The One
Go Mental

Top of the Pops London (9/28/78)
Don't Come Close

Oakland, CA (12/28/78)
I'm Against It
Needles And Pins

San Francisco Civic Center, S.F., CA (6/9/79)
I Want You Around
I'm Affected
California Sun

The Old Grey Whistle Test London (1/15/79
Rock 'N' Roll High School
Do You Remember Rock 'N' Roll Radio?

Top of the Pops London (1/31/80)
Baby I Love You

Sha Na Na L.A., CA (5/19/80)
Rock 'N' Roll High School

Mandagsborsen Stockholm, Sweden (10/26/81)
We Want The Airwaves

TVE Musical Express Madrid, Spain (11/17/81)
This Business Is Killing Me
All Quiet On The Eastern Front

US Festival San Bernardino, CA (9/3/82)
Do You Remember Rock 'N' Roll Radio?
Gimme Gimme Shock Treatment
Rock 'N' Roll High School
I Wanna Be Sedated
Beat On The Brat
The KKK Took My Baby Away
Here Today, Gone Tomorrow
Chinese Rocks
Teenage Lobotomy

The Old Grey Whistle Test London (2/26/85)
Wart Hog
Chasing The Night

Obras Sanitarias, Buenos Aires, Argentina (2/3/87)
Blitzkrieg Bop
Freak Of Nature
Crummy Stuff
Love Kills
I Don't Care
Too Tough To Die
Mama's Boy

Provinssirock Festival, Seinäjoki, Finland (6/4/88)
I Don't Want You Anymore
Weasel Face
Garden Of Serenity
I Just Want To Have Something To Do
Surfin' Bird
Cretin Hop
Somebody Put Something In My Drink
We're A Happy Family

R.I.T., Rochester, NY (10/8/88)
Do You Remember Rock 'N' Roll Radio
Wart Hog

Rolling Stone Club Milan, Italy (3/16/92)
Psycho Therapy
I Believe In Miracles
I Wanna Live
My Brain Is Hanging Upside Down (Bonzo Goes To Bitburg)
Pet Sematary
Animal Boy
Pinhead

Top of the Pops London (6/29/95)
I Don't Wanna Grow Up

River Plate Stadium, Buenos Aires, Argentina (3/16/96)
I Wanna Be Sedated
R.A.M.O.N.E.S.
Blitzkrieg Bop

(also, LOL at those reviewers going on about this without looking up the tracklist)

Oof -- might have to pick this up.

wow, overkill but I gotta have it. love dr. c on this thread, can't believe i never read it before.

R.I.T., Rochester, NY (10/8/88)

hmm. i saw them there in may of either '88 or '89. but given their touring at the time i guess maybe they played there twice in a year.

OMG hello birthday present!

The Dr. C breakdown of Ramones songcraft upthread just splattered my mind on the wall. So perfect.

Agreed. But the fact that he had to even MAKE that point makes me sad and frustrated. I'm all for skewering the sacred cows, but c'mon - how can anyone NOT like the fucking Ramones?? Possibly the most classic-est band evah!!! Upthread, all I see is more ILX Contrarian Rally nonsense...

"Tell me son, what is minimalism?"

Ramones are a band that always sound tremendous when I'm out somewhere, but never feel the urge to listen to at home.

They're a sort of necessary blast of rudeness. But not when I'm in a comfy chair.....

Does anyone have this yet? I ordered it online, expecting it any day now.

It's here! The box is very pink.

http://www.ramonesitsalivedvd.com/

I picked it up but it's a present for my brother-in-law so I haven't opened it. Looks really great, and my local record store has it on sale this week for $11 so I might just buy a copy for myself.

Just got it. I started with the archives, but I've gotta go to bed sometime so I used the handy menu to go straight to the 12/31/77 show.

95% of the first disc and the tracks I like on the second one = ULTRA CLASSIC.

Second disc gets progressively more painful to watch. Especially Joey. And Marky's hair.

Finished the New Years '77 show and went on to the second DVD. This first thing from Bremenpalast or whatever is really good. But yeah, I'm afraid of what is to come.

Looking forward to more Road To Ruin stuff, though.

I vote dud. I don't give bands any credit for being "influential," so they don't score points with me there. I just never feel like listening to those albums. Nobody I have ever known likes to play those albums. I find the music average at best, and the singing to be a real downer. Yeah, I guess I find the singing to be a big buzz kill. That said, I don't hate them that much, and maybe I even like 5-10 songs. I just find them closer to dud than to classic.

Fair enough.

It's gonna be incredible.

Some radio station I used to listen to had an except of Joey saying those words that is now burned in my brain since I heard it over and over and over, but doesn't look like I will be able to discover its provenance.

I'm watching the documentary Ramones RAW where Gilbert Gottfried reveals how he was the secret fifth Ramone. @RealGilbert pic.twitter.com/IH3VQUtsX8

— tom c (@librariantom) March 11, 2022

"Somebody Put Something in My Drink" is actually the first Ramones song I remember encountering.

it was one of my first too. I had Sheena Is A Punk Rocker on a compilation and I liked it but it seemed kinda lightweight next to some of the UK punk on the same compilation. one of my friends at the time was this Greek stoner guy who was into punk and metal but mostly the kind of skater 90s stuff like NOFX, Lagwagon and Propagandhi. I used to bring my Dead Kennedys CDs round. anyway he was playing Ramones Mania one night but it was towards the end and he was like yeah this is the Ramones and it was Somebody Put Something In My Drink and I didn't really like it, thought it was too rock/metal or something. I've come around on it a bit since.

anyway a couple of years later I bought All The Stuff And More 1 & 2 and that was it I was off

We shouldn't forget Elvis Ramone

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXWSyo0aPnc

https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/blondie-clem-burke-the-ramones/

This departure put The Ramones into turmoil as they needed to replace Richie, and fast. Having already been forced to postpone a pair of hometown shows at New York’s Ritz, the band were desperately aiming to avoid more concert cancellations when they made the call to Clem Burke, calling in a favour and join inventing ‘Elvis Ramone’. Despite being an offer that Burke couldn’t refuse, he was immediately thrown straight into the deep end with little to no rehearsal time to help integrate him into the Ramone family.

Recalling years later, The Blondie drummer described his first live show with fellow New Yorkers a disaster: “They asked me on a Monday when they had a gig on a Friday,” Burke explained. “It was the hardest work I ever did in a band.” Burke would only ever do one more show with the Ramones, the band deciding in the days between their next show that his style wasn’t the perfect fit.

The following weekend, as the drumming revolving door turned once again, the band made the call to re-appoint Marky Ramone who, of course, was their original drummer before Richie took up the sticks. Marky, it’s well documented, originally left the band due to drink problems which, thankfully, he was able to curb and he would stay in the band until their final show as an outfit in 1996.

Years later, while reflecting on the turbulent years, Joey Ramone explained why Burke and the Ramones styles didn’t quite work out: “His drumming style wasn’t right,” he said. “It was very loose, like in Blondie, not as rigid as we need. Double time on the hi-hat was totally alien to him.”

Lol, of course

But I definitely don't want to buy a 7-LP box set of the 80s Ramones records.

I definitely bought the 7-lp box set of 80s Ramones records.

LOL

https://boingboing.net/2022/08/02/someone-sneaked-a-super-8-camera-into-a-1978-ramones-concert-and-was-able-to-record-for-13-minutes-before-he-got-caught.html

Pretty great!

With all the original members dead and all the albums canonized in box sets, deluxe editions, etc., etc., it's hard to imagine what their impact must have been when they were new. But imagine living in Kansas City in 1978 and that band comes through town. It would have been life-altering.

Oh, this is actual Kansas City! I just looked at the youtube title and assumed it was Max's Kansas City.

haha same

That was awesome, thanks for sharing!

just in case people didn't know, there's a great 26 minute Live At The Rainbow 1977 video on YouTube too, from the It's Alive concert

the start of that is too camera flip heavy + some shots are reused but it gets better

Man, I got to get that Ramones DVD set now. Just looking at the tracklist makes me drool.

This one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sp3zaeOyL7Q

yeah! (sorry, was on my phone, could have linked that myself)

Saw a little something interesting on a certain substack yesterday, assuming TSF saw it as well.

https://waynerobins49.substack.com/p/ramones-leave-home

would have loved to see dr feelgood. i don't think i saw the ramones until 1977. saw them once at cbgb but it was a madhouse.

Gabba gabba weeks said you weeks said you one of us

Ramones and Dr Feelgood would have been fun. I didn't see Ramones till 79

Fabulous

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8sNfCdCAJg

11 songs in 20 minutes. Amazing.

Man, that totally hit the spot. Made my day, maybe my week.

wonderful <3

So great. Thanks.

You see that and you wonder why the Ramones weren’t big stars right away in the US. I think it was down to the radio formatting at the time.

Force of nature. That's why It's Alive! is my favorite Ramones album, it's like a freight train.

that "all downstrokes" rule was punishing.

Did you subject yourself to that rule at any point, TSF?

only long enough to prove to myself those guys were crazy.

There are other situations where people do it, but maybe not ever single bar(re) of every single song.