what are barack obama's flaws?

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probably has a clogged pore or two

dan m, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:35 (nine years ago) Permalink

In that case, all this 'bipartisanship' talk makes me worry he'll let the plutocrats walk all over him in the name of unity. It's too early to tell, of course. The problem is, I'm guilty of being a little star struck by the dude and his speeches and advisors and stuff, so I'm probably missing important defects. So maybe that's a flaw, too.

Oilyrags, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:37 (nine years ago) Permalink

too cool

jhøshea, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:37 (nine years ago) Permalink

yeah, basically

Oilyrags, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:37 (nine years ago) Permalink

Born in the wrong country at the wrong time.

Both Hillary and McCain would be "good" Presidents, especially in comparison to the current Commander-In-Chief, but neither of them are in the same league as Obama.

Oh yeah, he's also an elitist, as the children of single moms tend to be.

j-rock, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:38 (nine years ago) Permalink

Wife seems like a dick.

paulhw, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:39 (nine years ago) Permalink

Better writer than every single last one of his critics and most of his supporters.

Dave Matthews endorsement.

Trick move in pickup b-ball is to fake to the right, plow in hard to the left. No symbolism there at all.

suzy, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:41 (nine years ago) Permalink

i actually wish people would take this thread seriously; i didnt realize it wasnt about electability & i think the answer is probably the same either way (we dont know yet), but even tho im behind the guy 100% & have been for months my gut says myself & probably a lot of people here are gonna be dissatisfied with him 4-8 years down the road. a discussion of concrete reasons why this might be so seems worthwhile to me

deeznuts, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:42 (nine years ago) Permalink

foreign policy naivete. biggest thing that worries me about him by far. if he gets elected, pulls us out of iraq, closes gitmo, and restores civil liberties to their pre-9/11 status, and then ta-da something actually blows up, how many times is he going to say "uh um" during the press conference in which he capitulates to the chickenhawks in both parties screaming for his head

El Tomboto, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:45 (nine years ago) Permalink

thank u deeznuts i am serious about like actual clintonesque character defects not more empty lolz how everybody except us is superficial & racist

and what, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:45 (nine years ago) Permalink

what elmo and tom said, basically--the dude comes across as too trusting in america's ability to be smart about shit

max, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:48 (nine years ago) Permalink

not good at speaking for 10 second clips on the 6 o clock news

Catsupppppppppppppp dude 茄蕃, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:48 (nine years ago) Permalink

hard to say but i think he believes his own hype at this point

messiah complex (likely to evolve into martyr complex)

elmo argonaut, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:50 (nine years ago) Permalink

yeah what max/tombot/elmo said fourthed.

Hurting 2, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:51 (nine years ago) Permalink

might not be able to tame congress and end up like Clinton in 1994

Catsupppppppppppppp dude 茄蕃, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:54 (nine years ago) Permalink

Also a bit of what deez said - I'm worried he's setting himself up to disappoint everyone.

Hurting 2, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:54 (nine years ago) Permalink

has convinved people like me to be largely uninterested in this question

gabbneb, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:55 (nine years ago) Permalink

He has a bit of this tendency to come off like "I fully understand this problem because I've read many essays about it." Which makes me like him and wince at the same time.

Hurting 2, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:57 (nine years ago) Permalink

if he gets elected, pulls us out of iraq, closes gitmo, and restores civil liberties to their pre-9/11 status, and then ta-da something actually blows up, how many times is he going to say "uh um" during the press conference in which he capitulates to the chickenhawks in both parties screaming for his head

It's hard to see how staying in Iraq is helping to prevent domestic terrorism. Even McCain wants to close Gitmo. I doubt civil liberties will go all the way back to pre-9/11 status, and not sure if Obama is even suggesting that they should

o. nate, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 20:58 (nine years ago) Permalink

has convinved people like me to be largely uninterested in this question

-- gabbneb, Wednesday, April 30, 2008 8:55 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

shock of shocks

deeznuts, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:04 (nine years ago) Permalink

what elmo and tom said, basically--the dude comes across as too trusting in america's ability to be smart about shit

-- max, Wednesday, April 30, 2008 8:48 PM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

i really want to believe this is true, but it sounds the kind of bs that be lipped by his supporters - his flaw is that he's TOO right about everything? ill take that.

deeznuts, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:07 (nine years ago) Permalink

foreign policy naivete. biggest thing that worries me about him by far. if he gets elected, pulls us out of iraq, closes gitmo, and restores civil liberties to their pre-9/11 status, and then ta-da something actually blows up, how many times is he going to say "uh um" during the press conference in which he capitulates to the chickenhawks in both parties screaming for his head

-- El Tomboto, Wednesday, April 30, 2008 4:45 PM (22 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

this is more lol gwb put u in a jackpot sry!

jhøshea, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:09 (nine years ago) Permalink

i am really curious as to what hes gonna do w/the gitmo dudes who we have evidence against thats inadmissible due to torture tho

jhøshea, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:10 (nine years ago) Permalink

i wonder about his ability/willingness to get his hands dirty and wrestle things to the ground. saying you're willing to talk to iran/hamas/whoever is all well and good, but if you go into those situations you have to go in saying, "here's the deal: you can get this and this, you can't get this and this, and we're going to have to fight about this and this -- but if the fight goes on too long, you get nothing." the bushies have been terrible at that stuff, so it's not like the bar is set particularly high, but it would be nice to have someone who can actually get some things done. (wouldn't have to be him personally, but he'd need some hardball players around who knew how to do that.) (same applies in dealing with congress, obviously.)

tipsy mothra, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:11 (nine years ago) Permalink

deex -- i didn't say he's overly correct, but i think he may be presumptuous that America will be eager or grateful about implementing the changes he wants

elmo argonaut, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:12 (nine years ago) Permalink

also I am dead serious that his uh um uh tic that he has when you can tell he's thinking on his feet is really not reassuring at all

El Tomboto, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:13 (nine years ago) Permalink

he actually comes across as a guy who would be an absolute expert at that kind of stuff to me tipsy

deeznuts, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:13 (nine years ago) Permalink

yah he def should cut that out xp

jhøshea, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:14 (nine years ago) Permalink

nodding slowly and looking thoughtful is the way to go

jhøshea, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:15 (nine years ago) Permalink

his uh um uh tic that he has when you can tell he's thinking on his feet

this doesn't bother me so much -- it's campaign season and he has to be excruciatingly calculating about his diction. when he speaks off the cuff he gets in trouble, but really only because he running for office

elmo argonaut, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:15 (nine years ago) Permalink

or alternatively quit being so optimistic about your fellow humans that you keep getting surprised by shit, like Wright dropping an atom bomb on you on national television

El Tomboto, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:16 (nine years ago) Permalink

xp Still, I think Hillary is a better extemporaneous speaker.

jaymc, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:17 (nine years ago) Permalink

his almost musical hand-gesture of 'conducting' a discussion / 'putting a fine point' on an argument

it's like the new bubba remote

elmo argonaut, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:17 (nine years ago) Permalink

I don't think Tom's point is that Obama is going to cause terrorism to happen, just that when it does he's going to look bad.

Hurting 2, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:18 (nine years ago) Permalink

you guys all seem to think obama waaaaaaaaay less pragmatic than i do, i guess

deeznuts, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:18 (nine years ago) Permalink

I actually HOPE he's more cynical and pragmatic than I'm giving him credit for.

Hurting 2, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:19 (nine years ago) Permalink

eh tom did begin his post w/"foreign policy naivete." soo...

jhøshea, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:19 (nine years ago) Permalink

I don't think Tom's point is that Obama is going to cause terrorism to happen, just that when it does he's going to look bad.

-- Hurting 2, Wednesday, April 30, 2008 9:18 PM (9 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

isnt this precisely cuz its easy to paint him as a pussy/pushover, which you guys all seem to be buying into?? i think hes far from either of those things. and i dont mean to draw this into electability issues, just that im more interested in what might be lurking behind the 'optimist' facade

deeznuts, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:20 (nine years ago) Permalink

i mean, this guy is naive?? he comes across as a freaking borderline genius to me

deeznuts, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:21 (nine years ago) Permalink

The Bush adminstration has done so much to restore if not empower the executive branch that I doubt President McCain, Clinton, or Obama would be so eager to rescind those powers -- why would you?

I wish he was an atheist -- with his oratorical skills he could do lots for the millions of us who want to hear a convincing defense of godlessness put to theists. And yet, and yet, I suspect he IS less of a god-fearing man than he pretends. Something about his preternatural coolness bespeaks a kind of deism.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:23 (nine years ago) Permalink

might not be able to tame congress and end up like Clinton in 1994

Can't see that happening. He's got too many friends there already on both sides. Senators apparently luv the dude.

xp Still, I think Hillary is a better extemporaneous speaker.

unless you ask her about bill's position on nafta and she goes into that uncomfortable cackle that's soooo painful to watch.

kenan, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:23 (nine years ago) Permalink

just a little armchair psychoanalysis, let's all be cool

elmo argonaut, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:24 (nine years ago) Permalink

its funny how everyone buys the optimist/naivety package - its a symptom of dumb cynicism - those two really dont have to come together

jhøshea, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:25 (nine years ago) Permalink

in fact i bet that obama is closer to the optimist/cynic model

jhøshea, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:25 (nine years ago) Permalink

its funny how everyone buys the optimist/naivety package

^^^. The right wing has been all "SEE? SEE? AUDACITY OF HOPE MY ASS!" the last couple of weeks; they've accepted the narrative that Obama is a New Kind of Politician. To me he's "new" only in that he understands the importance of words and is uncommonly quick-witted.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:26 (nine years ago) Permalink

yeah i dunno if thats directed at me or not but i agree -- im not saying i dont believe the guy isnt genuinely optimistic, but i def dont believe he's remotely naive, like not even remotely remotely xps to jhoshea

deeznuts, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:27 (nine years ago) Permalink

not directed at u in the slightest deez

jhøshea, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:29 (nine years ago) Permalink

paranoid/optimist ^^^ lol

jhøshea, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:29 (nine years ago) Permalink

More on Obama & civil liberties: he voted to make permanent all but two of the PATRIOT act provisions that had been originally passed with an expiration date - so not exactly a wide-eyed innocent on that front.

o. nate, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:34 (nine years ago) Permalink

i mean, this guy is naive?? he comes across as a freaking borderline genius to me

Early on I thought he came off as naive when he said that having lived abroad was a foreign policy credential. Like not only naive for thinking that (which he might not have, really), but naive for thinking it sounded good.

Hurting 2, Wednesday, 30 April 2008 21:42 (nine years ago) Permalink

No, Obama was the commander in chief.

Frederik B, Saturday, 24 June 2017 09:38 (four weeks ago) Permalink

In some ways it's comforting to know that everyone underestimated the collective stupidity of US voters, all the way to the top, the electoral college, and in other ways it's very frightening

El Tomboto, Saturday, 24 June 2017 12:22 (four weeks ago) Permalink

Also Fred B otm
And Alfred otm with the revive
Obama needed more deontology, slightly less utilitarianism

El Tomboto, Saturday, 24 June 2017 12:24 (four weeks ago) Permalink

He was weak on foreign policy. Which really isn't the worst thing to be, in practice the alternative has been bluster and stupidity. But even if he led Hillary talk him into stupid decisions - which really wasn't what happened... - that's him being weak. He led France lead the US into Libya, with bad consequences, and he led Russia lead the US out of Syria, with pretty bad consequences as well. He was 'deliberative and careful', if you want to describe it in a positive way, but that led others to take the lead, and it's as bad an outcome as can be that Russia then decided to hack the US election, and he didn't know what to do...

Frederik B, Saturday, 24 June 2017 12:43 (four weeks ago) Permalink

But, I mean, he is the US president with the best foreign policy this millenium. By far... Foreign policy is complicated.

Frederik B, Saturday, 24 June 2017 12:44 (four weeks ago) Permalink

Obama's foreign policy was fine. Our presidents are elected by 200 million provincial townspeople who can't find where Fred B lives on a map so I'm very happy whenever we get one who doesn't start two wars he can't fucking finish.

El Tomboto, Saturday, 24 June 2017 12:46 (four weeks ago) Permalink

xp FB otm

El Tomboto, Saturday, 24 June 2017 12:46 (four weeks ago) Permalink

(Zing crashed as I posted that fwiw)

El Tomboto, Saturday, 24 June 2017 12:47 (four weeks ago) Permalink

yeah he would probably have the shortest sentence in The Hague of recent presidents

maybe 30 years

I'm very happy whenever we get one who doesn't start two wars he can't fucking finish.

ah, FINISHING them is the key

not finishing the ones you inherited, less important

Supercreditor (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 24 June 2017 12:57 (four weeks ago) Permalink

Fuck you, you predictable shit. You're from the "America shouldn't have any foreign policy" wing of the left, we all fucking know

El Tomboto, Saturday, 24 June 2017 13:01 (four weeks ago) Permalink

ok oily but we arent going to look back in 10 years and be like this guy was actually only okay

j0rda not otm

the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 24 June 2017 13:13 (four weeks ago) Permalink

Thanks, T. How does your ilk sleep? Humanity ends at the border, obviously.

Supercreditor (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 24 June 2017 13:18 (four weeks ago) Permalink

remember, when the cogs like El T say "foreign policy," hear "global abbatoir"

at least they're not predictable, tho

Supercreditor (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 24 June 2017 13:20 (four weeks ago) Permalink

Yeah, it's all about how you sleep, right? You'd be fine with every non-American dying horrifically, as long as you could wash your own hands of it.

Frederik B, Saturday, 24 June 2017 13:20 (four weeks ago) Permalink

go get under a drone, u babbler

Supercreditor (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 24 June 2017 13:28 (four weeks ago) Permalink

Fuck you

El Tomboto, Saturday, 24 June 2017 13:29 (four weeks ago) Permalink

tom relax jeez!

k3vin k., Saturday, 24 June 2017 13:49 (four weeks ago) Permalink

not sure what fred's HRC white knighting is all about, i didn't really dis her that hard or anything. there's tons of reporting out there that suggests she was one of the louder hawks in obama's ear during her time at state, and given that obama's decision-making style was nothing if not collaborative (a good thing!), it seems reasonable to point that out. though yes, ultimately the decision is his

k3vin k., Saturday, 24 June 2017 13:52 (four weeks ago) Permalink

Fuck off with that sexist 'white knight' bullshit, will you?

Frederik B, Saturday, 24 June 2017 14:13 (four weeks ago) Permalink

everybody so touchy this morning huh

k3vin k., Saturday, 24 June 2017 14:22 (four weeks ago) Permalink

From my perspective, Obama was collaborative with the people he invited to the room. He always invited someone who would disagree with him, and then try to accommodate them. Not convince them to come around to his position. That's probably his greatest flaw, as Alfred alluded to above

El Tomboto, Saturday, 24 June 2017 14:23 (four weeks ago) Permalink

He deserves a lot of praise for Cuba and Iran, though, I forgot about that. I think my main problem with his foreign policy was mostly his slowness. He didn't have a guiding ideology, which is a fairly good thing. He wanted to be reactive and free and improvising, but he was just at times so slow that things spun out of control before he did anything. The part of that WaPo story of them trying to figure out a response to the Russians is a comedy of errors.

Frederik B, Saturday, 24 June 2017 14:29 (four weeks ago) Permalink

Obama's foreign policy was fine.

lol

a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Saturday, 24 June 2017 16:34 (four weeks ago) Permalink

American FP orthodoxy is poison and O did nothing to change that even if he didn't necessarily indulge in every possible worst impulse

a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Saturday, 24 June 2017 16:36 (four weeks ago) Permalink

Design the perfect US foreign policy! Wait no let me guess Bernie already did it

El Tomboto, Saturday, 24 June 2017 16:42 (four weeks ago) Permalink

Bernie is awful on foreign policy and basically the entire left acknowledges this

a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Saturday, 24 June 2017 16:47 (four weeks ago) Permalink

I'd start with not giving the Saudis a bunch of money or drone bombing hospitals, how's that?

a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Saturday, 24 June 2017 16:48 (four weeks ago) Permalink

Wait no let me guess Bernie already did it

I'll join the "fuck you" party.

Supercreditor (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 24 June 2017 16:59 (four weeks ago) Permalink

Disarmament Now

Supercreditor (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 24 June 2017 17:00 (four weeks ago) Permalink

/ Wait no let me guess Bernie already did it/

I'll join the "fuck you" party.

You did that a while back, remember when we 51'd you? I really enjoyed being called a "cog" though.

Oh, and Fuck you.

El Tomboto, Saturday, 24 June 2017 17:05 (four weeks ago) Permalink

I'd start with not giving the Saudis a bunch of money or drone bombing hospitals, how's that?

Okay if we want to do this for real, and since I'm usually the hippie in the room at my day job I'm certainly game, should we have a thread?

El Tomboto, Saturday, 24 June 2017 17:08 (four weeks ago) Permalink

Bombing hospitals is insanely good.

the ghost of markers, Saturday, 24 June 2017 17:10 (four weeks ago) Permalink

definitely call it the American FP thread

blog haus aka the scene raver (wins), Saturday, 24 June 2017 17:11 (four weeks ago) Permalink

for the love of god if you really must do that revive an existing thread, having a new dedicated trump thread is bad enough

a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Saturday, 24 June 2017 17:21 (four weeks ago) Permalink

oh good this should be edifying

Mordy, Saturday, 24 June 2017 17:21 (four weeks ago) Permalink

j0rda not otm

― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, June 24, 2017 2:13 PM (eight hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

you guys are missing the point

― J0rdan S., Wednesday, April 30, 2008 9:33 PM (nine years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Andrew Farrell, Saturday, 24 June 2017 21:31 (four weeks ago) Permalink


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