Thanks!
― Wintermute (Wintermute), Thursday, 6 February 2003 13:55 (twenty-one years ago) link
>Are the Cthulhu novels any good?
?. Lovecraft wrote only three very-very-short novels, none of which feature Cthulhu. Anything w/ Cthulhu not written by HP is guaranteed to suck.
― fletrejet, Thursday, 6 February 2003 13:55 (twenty-one years ago) link
― fletrejet, Thursday, 6 February 2003 13:56 (twenty-one years ago) link
And I always thought HPL was a misogynist.
― Wintermute (Wintermute), Thursday, 6 February 2003 14:00 (twenty-one years ago) link
The only story that the Big C makes a personal appearance in is "Call of Cthulhu." If by Cthulhu you mean the "Cthulhu mythos", as in the pantheon of dieties including Cthulhu, then yes, they are good, you've already read a few (e.g "Shadow over Innsmouth").
>And I always thought HPL was a misogynist.
He was that too, but since women hardly ever appear in his stories, its not really obvious in his writing. (exception = "thingie on the doorstep")
― fletrejet, Thursday, 6 February 2003 14:08 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Graham (graham), Thursday, 6 February 2003 14:09 (twenty-one years ago) link
Still an amazingly effective writer, though -- fitting in brutalist materialism into the realm of the 'supernatural' (and seeing how he modified the subjects of his stories over time) = classic. Go for the annotated collections from S. T. Joshi if you can find them.
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 6 February 2003 14:11 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 6 February 2003 14:16 (twenty-one years ago) link
very few of his stories actually mention Cthulhu. both short novels "The Case Of Charles Dexter Ward" and "At The Mountains Of Madness" probably mention Him in passing, but they are still canonical 'cthulhu mythos' stories. And crackers.
amusingly, popular comic "Vertigo Pop: London" is essentially a ripoff of a Lovecraft story.
and yes, Lovecraft was racist, misogynist, snobbish and ultra-conservative.
― DV (dirtyvicar), Thursday, 6 February 2003 14:39 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 6 February 2003 14:42 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 6 February 2003 14:43 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Ronan (Ronan), Thursday, 6 February 2003 14:58 (twenty-one years ago) link
― DV (dirtyvicar), Thursday, 6 February 2003 14:59 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Christopher (Christopher), Thursday, 6 February 2003 15:03 (twenty-one years ago) link
― daria g, Thursday, 6 February 2003 16:18 (twenty-one years ago) link
all this talk of Lovecraft makes me want to go up to Vermont on my next US trip.
― DV (dirtyvicar), Thursday, 6 February 2003 16:23 (twenty-one years ago) link
― DV (dirtyvicar), Thursday, 6 February 2003 17:36 (twenty-one years ago) link
Actually the true horror is when he learns.... he is one of THEM!
― fletrejet, Thursday, 6 February 2003 17:48 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 6 February 2003 19:34 (twenty-one years ago) link
I picked up one of the collections when I was in high school and absolutely loved it.
"Mountains of Madness" = Totally awesome!
― Jonathan Williams (ex machina), Thursday, 6 February 2003 20:18 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Jonathan Williams (ex machina), Thursday, 6 February 2003 20:19 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 6 February 2003 20:20 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Pashmina (Pashmina), Thursday, 6 February 2003 20:24 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Thursday, 6 February 2003 20:35 (twenty-one years ago) link
Clark Ashton Smith - He was a much better writer in the traditional sense than HPL, but he didn't have the ideas that Lovecraft had. Still, "The City of the Singing Flame" and "The Master of the Asteroid" are classic.
― fletrejet, Thursday, 6 February 2003 20:40 (twenty-one years ago) link
what do people think of the "Call Of Cthulhu" roleplaying game?
― DV (dirtyvicar), Thursday, 6 February 2003 21:04 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Thursday, 6 February 2003 21:11 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 6 February 2003 21:41 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Christopher (Christopher), Thursday, 6 February 2003 21:44 (twenty-one years ago) link
i'd certainly go for classicness. The case of charles dexter ward is grateness. At the mountains of madness is pretty good and they do a great roleplaying one based on that too but i don't think they have one based on charles dexter ward.
I like reading his short stories and stuff late at night when i'm too tired to decipher poe, not that' they're really grately similar i guess. except for the whole slow build, terror brimming at the seams kind of thing.
― jeffrey (Danny), Thursday, 6 February 2003 22:42 (twenty-one years ago) link
― the crawling chaos Nyarlathotep (tracerhand), Thursday, 6 February 2003 22:54 (twenty-one years ago) link
― duane (doorag), Friday, 7 February 2003 00:05 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 7 February 2003 01:03 (twenty-one years ago) link
― duane, Friday, 7 February 2003 01:21 (twenty-one years ago) link
...uses more than one adjective in a row, i.e.: "Molded by the dead brain of a hybrid nightmare, would not such a vaporous terror constitute in all loathsome truth the exquisitely, the shriekingly unnamable?" ("The Unnamable")
...uses a purposely vague description. (i.e. "unspeakable horror")
...refers to an other-worldy location. (i.e., Sarnath, Kadath in the Cold Waste, and the like. "The Dream-Quest of the Unknown Kadath" will put you under the table easily.)
...refers to an other-worldy entity by proper name. (Remember, Cthulhu and Nyarlathotep are proper names of single entities, but Mi-Go and shoggoth are not; they are types of entities.)
...states anything racist, sexist, fascist, or generally non-PC. This rule makes "The Horror at Red Hook" particularly nasty to get through. Don't debate too much about what is racist or sexist, though... When in doubt, drink.
...uses the "British" spelling of any word, such as "colour" or "favour".
...any time a character winds up at a temple or church.
...any time a "forbidden" book is mentioned in the story. This includes De Vermis Mysteris, Unaussprechlichen Kulten, and, of course, The Necronomicon, among others.
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 7 February 2003 01:34 (twenty-one years ago) link
the funniest bit in the documentary is the letter Lovecraft wrote before going to volunteer for the first world war ("The blood of the fjords flows through me!") and then the letter he wrote after being classed as permanently unfit for any military service.
― DV (dirtyvicar), Friday, 7 February 2003 13:21 (twenty-one years ago) link
― mark s (mark s), Friday, 7 February 2003 13:24 (twenty-one years ago) link
or does it?
― DV (dirtyvicar), Friday, 7 February 2003 15:08 (twenty-one years ago) link
DV: But Asenath wasn't really Asenath, her father(?) exchanged minds with her. He found out that a female brain was somehow inferior to a male one, and that is why he went about seducing Edward Derby in order to mind-switch with him. Implying, of course, that women were dumb.
As pointed out, in person Lovecraft was said by all to be a nice and well-manned and charming individual. And later in life he dropped most/all of his reactionary beliefs and even began to lean toward socialist politics. So his racism/sexism/anglophilia was mostly just protracted adolescent nonsense.
― fletrejet, Friday, 7 February 2003 15:28 (twenty-one years ago) link
Or maybe that makes it more funny??
― Ally (mlescaut), Friday, 7 February 2003 17:35 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 7 February 2003 17:37 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 7 February 2003 17:39 (twenty-one years ago) link
― DV (dirtyvicar), Friday, 7 February 2003 17:41 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Jeffrey (Danny), Friday, 7 February 2003 17:44 (twenty-one years ago) link
This person also stayed up all night on two occasions freaking about the implications of The Texas Chainsaw Massacre in relation to whether or not he had any of the massacrists personality traits and if it made him a terrible person. The last episode of Twin Peaks also set him off in similar fashion about "dirty" versus "clean" and various personality traits he was certain he shared with Windom Earle. So maybe the whole Cthulhu thing was relative to a bigger issue than HP Lovecraft.
In retrospect, it implies more about my sanity than his that I put up with it, but regardless it was obviously the workings of a completely unhinged mind. Monty Python quotes would've been the saving grace of nonseriousness.
― Ally (mlescaut), Friday, 7 February 2003 18:41 (twenty-one years ago) link
Occultists will, generally, believe anything they want to believe in.The Necronomicon is no more fake than any other "real" occult book of forbiden knowledge.
Ned: If Lovecraft survived, I believe he would have continued his trend of writing more science-fictiony type stuff. He became disenchanted with his more occult/magical stuff, which he refered to as "Yog-Sothothery".
― fletrejet, Friday, 7 February 2003 18:55 (twenty-one years ago) link
The stories are great, also; the best editions are the hardbacks put out by Arkham House. They also published his letters, which are often quite interesting--to the likes of R.E. Howard etc.
― Ian Johnson, Friday, 7 February 2003 19:54 (twenty-one years ago) link
Makes sense. "At the Mountains of Madness" certainly showed the way (and was plenty chilling enough without that sheer freakout at the end, a little bit of the ol' Yog there).
Yeeps, Ally.
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 7 February 2003 21:15 (twenty-one years ago) link
― DV (dirtyvicar), Friday, 7 February 2003 21:35 (twenty-one years ago) link
I know nothing of Lovecraft's works besides this, of course. He was referred to as sort of a scientist by the ex, imagine my surprise to read this thread.
― Ally (mlescaut), Saturday, 8 February 2003 02:51 (twenty-one years ago) link
man, going back through this thread and seeing the "everybody back then was racist" defense being trotted out by one of the worst people ever to post here really brings me back
― shout-out to his family (DJP), Wednesday, 21 October 2020 17:44 (three years ago) link
Still enjoying Dunsany quite a bit, coming to more of a love/hate point with Lovecraft, Clark Ashton Smith and Robert E Howard, too often a slog but still some of my favorite stuff ever. Despite so much boring work, William Hope Hodgson never grates that much stylistically, my love for him hasn't taken much of a hit yet.
― Robert Adam Gilmour, Wednesday, 21 October 2020 17:46 (three years ago) link
Maybe reading the complete works of most worthwhile writers will make you hate them a little bit?
― Robert Adam Gilmour, Wednesday, 21 October 2020 17:54 (three years ago) link
it is interesting to me that the particulars of his imagined cosmos have such broad reach.
Critics like Clute and Monleon describe the horror/fantasy/sf genres as emerging in reaction to Enlightenment concepts of reason and a rational universe, and Lovecraft, who saw himself as a kind of 18th century philosophe, was a firm believer in that worldview ... despite his gestures toward esotericism, he seems much more skeptical about traditional beliefs in the sacred and transcendent than earlier horror writers were ... that outlook gives his revival of the sacred and transcendent in negative forms a weird SF charge
tl;dr in spite of his archaic style he's a modernist and his cosmic nihilism gets to modern audiences in a way traditional gothic stuff usually doesn't
I'm not sure how Cthulhu plush toys fit into this
― Brad C., Wednesday, 21 October 2020 18:34 (three years ago) link
Despite my fondness for this stuff it utterly baffles me why people are still so impressed by the cosmic horror concept.
Jess Nevins yet againhttp://jessnevins.com/blog/?p=956
― Robert Adam Gilmour, Wednesday, 21 October 2020 18:43 (three years ago) link
― Robert Adam Gilmour, Wednesday, October 21, 2020 12:54 PM (fifty-one minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
I didn't really appreciate Picasso until I took a class devoted entirely to his work and realized that a lot of his work that made its way into the world wasn't actually intended for public consumption and resulted in kinda watering down his genius.
I'm actually working my way through the complete Lovecraft atm and, yeah, I can see why he wasn't big on releasing some of his juvenilia.
― OrificeMax (Old Lunch), Wednesday, 21 October 2020 18:48 (three years ago) link
I wonder if it's a lack of satisfaction. The core of cosmic horror is a physical sensation I think most people have felt - a rock at the pit of your stomach, a momentary loss of self, flash attacks of fear and anxiety. The inability of anyone to translate that sensation perfectly into text keeps it alive.
― Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Wednesday, 21 October 2020 18:54 (three years ago) link
FTR, I find a lot of his stuff effectively creepy in a sui generis way few writers seem able to replicate but his overreliance on xenophobic tropes is easily (and obviously) his weakest point. Beyond even those moments of jaw-droppingly racist shit, it's just this tendency to depict his protagonists as horrified specifically by the physical qualities of some 'monstrous' entity without offering much in the way of non-material reasons for the terror on display. 'It...it's so gross-looking! Ew!'
― OrificeMax (Old Lunch), Wednesday, 21 October 2020 18:57 (three years ago) link
It's more that I don't get why cosmic horror still seems so new and novel to so many people, even just the idea of there being no god to look after you. This should be a more familiar idea than it seems to be. I remember people talking about how stoic in the face of grimness the norse myths/old beliefs are I guess not every religion had the idea that the gods are your friends or will do you any favors?
― Robert Adam Gilmour, Wednesday, 21 October 2020 19:08 (three years ago) link
If I was encountering some typical monster of this genre, I think the physical fear and disgust may overwhelm any philosophical horrors.
― Robert Adam Gilmour, Wednesday, 21 October 2020 19:10 (three years ago) link
In the canonical stories, Conan remarks in conversation that it is best to avoid doing anything that would draw Crom's attention, as he hands out only dooms and trouble...
Crom kinda the same way as Cthulu... not much of an ally.
― Andy the Grasshopper, Wednesday, 21 October 2020 19:12 (three years ago) link
Handled deftly in the first film:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVFpy5UwsAU
― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 21 October 2020 19:14 (three years ago) link
And there's so much repetitive formula in horror like this, part of the feeling that I'm slogging through these writers at this point is that there isn't many real surprises after a certain point. Curious to see who will keep it unpredictable. Dunsany really isn't the same though, he changes the mode of his stories more.
― Robert Adam Gilmour, Wednesday, 21 October 2020 19:20 (three years ago) link
I was going to get them later but I just bought Jess Nevins two books on horror, woohoo!
― Robert Adam Gilmour, Wednesday, 21 October 2020 20:15 (three years ago) link
I see in Lovecraft a sort of anti-gnosticism; rather than knowledge bringing power, it brings dread and unspeakable horror. We're really better off not knowing about seafood cults and Mad Arabs.
― Andy the Grasshopper, Wednesday, 21 October 2020 21:04 (three years ago) link
“The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age.”
― DT, Wednesday, 21 October 2020 22:16 (three years ago) link
I pretty much still think everything that I used to think about HP Lovecraft, though I am now perhaps more conscious of his problematic racism.
― The New Dirty Vicar, Thursday, 22 October 2020 19:51 (three years ago) link
seafood cults
Dread Lobster
― Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Thursday, 22 October 2020 19:52 (three years ago) link
On a random whim, I started reading the Illuminatus! trilogy after skipping it all my life and there’s a surprisingly amount of Lovecraft in it. He must have been having a moment in the mid-70s
― Glower, Disruption & Pies (kingfish), Thursday, 22 October 2020 21:50 (three years ago) link
in the early-mid 70s Ballantine published almost all of Lovecraft's fiction in paperbacks ... prior to that I think most of it was available only in pricey Arkham House editions
― Brad C., Thursday, 22 October 2020 22:07 (three years ago) link
I think my first ever was this paperback:
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51VdU2lrV0L._SX373_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
― Andy the Grasshopper, Thursday, 22 October 2020 22:10 (three years ago) link
A friend of mine who has a kid says that Cthulhu is now in the Beano, which is something.
― The New Dirty Vicar, Friday, 23 October 2020 22:27 (three years ago) link
Can never wrap my head around kawaii + Lovecraftian grotesquehttps://imgur.com/gallery/L76LU
― Robert Adam Gilmour, Wednesday, 28 October 2020 18:25 (three years ago) link
this SCP short, SCP Overlord, (i couldn't find an SCP thread on ilx) is a v good mix of tactical warfare, videocam supernatural perception (think Ringu), and modernised, new england lovecraft:
trailer here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrZUj1fNQL8
― Fizzles, Monday, 23 November 2020 16:34 (three years ago) link
https://www.wired.com/story/scientists-discover-strange-creatures-under-a-half-mile-of-ice/
― The Ballad of Mel Cooley (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 17 February 2021 01:16 (three years ago) link
Whisperer in Darkness was dope, even though I felt at times the narrator had to be the dumbest smart person in the history of man
― Cthulhu Diamond Phillips (Neanderthal), Saturday, 29 April 2023 05:45 (eleven months ago) link
"Yaddith would be a dead world dominated by triumphant bholes""Below him the ground was festering with gigantic bholes; and even as he looked, one reared up""There were hideous struggles with the bleached, viscous bholes"
OH COME ON
― Cthulhu Diamond Phillips (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 3 May 2023 01:51 (ten months ago) link
Dud.
― meat and two vdgg (emsworth), Wednesday, 3 May 2023 03:12 (ten months ago) link
I always thought that story was terribly padded, badly structured and he kind of goes overboard to keep talling you how old the place is, but it's got some cool stuff. Shadow Over Innsmouth will probably always be my favorite.
― Robert Adam Gilmour, Wednesday, 3 May 2023 21:30 (ten months ago) link
I have a collection of other writers (Ramsey Campbell, Gaiman, etc.) expanding on the Innsmouth mythos... it's not all great but it's pretty fun. Lovecraft was known for encouraging other writers in this kind of shared world-building
― Andy the Grasshopper, Wednesday, 3 May 2023 21:45 (ten months ago) link
N.K. Jemisin wrote a short story (expanded into 2 books) specifically to tackle Lovecraft's racism https://www.tor.com/2016/09/28/the-city-born-great/
She is explicitly not a fan while Victor LaValle takes a more - not sympathetic but maybe more steeped in some level of appreciation to Lovecraft in The Ballad of Black Tom a response to The Horror at Red Hook
― H in Addis, Thursday, 4 May 2023 04:02 (ten months ago) link
read John Langan's The Fisherman novel and Wide Carnivorous Sky collection late last year, they were some of the better Lovecraftian things I've read that aren't implicitly critical takes on the Lovecraft idea (like The Ballad of Black Tom and Lovecraft Country, I bailed on NK Jemisin's first Great Cities book about a quarter of the way in).
― papal hotwife (milo z), Thursday, 4 May 2023 04:39 (ten months ago) link
I really wanted to like The City We Became, but I just couldn't.
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Thursday, 4 May 2023 04:40 (ten months ago) link
I've read The Ballad of Black Tom and The Fisherman and liked both a lot. Keep meaning to read more by LaValle. I loved Jemisin's Broken Earth trilogy but read a description of the city book and winced so hard I thought I felt the skin on the back of my head split.
I also read Lovecraft Country and liked it a lot. The series was pretty disappointing, though, and the new sequel book, The Destroyer of Worlds, was kinda weak. I read it, but I can't even remember any of it now.
― but also fuck you (unperson), Friday, 5 May 2023 23:32 (ten months ago) link
Yeah, agreed re: the Lovecraft sequel as unmemorable. Was looking forward to the Atticus divergence, book vs. show, and the sequel book gave him short shrift.
― the body of a spider... (scampering alpaca), Saturday, 6 May 2023 00:37 (ten months ago) link
Disappointing, I didn't even know there was a sequel.
― papal hotwife (milo z), Saturday, 6 May 2023 01:11 (ten months ago) link